What's the real reason you want amps & cabs on stage? Rather than a POD/SansAmp etc.

[Prime_BASS]

Personally for the majority of stages its bass monitoring, as the on stage monitors simply don't cover bass or do a decent enough job. Also a variety of PA's will not cater for bass. And many shows beyond pumping LF around a room they are useless at driving mids around a room.
Also the DI on the amp head is no better or worse than what is available in standalone forms or on any programmable floor unit.

Outside of my own exerience, there are proably thousands upon thousands of players whose rig is the only bass available in the room, along with every rehearsal room the Pa is strictly for vocals only and same goes for every rehearsal I have done outside of renting a room.

Also a line 6 pod doesn't have valves, duh.

I ask you, how you get by without an amp full stop. Audience might struggle hearing you without one in a coffee shop gig whete he PA is the same size as a matchbox.



Although I do understand your confusion over why people equate amps to tone. My dry sound straight to desk is how i like it, I've already compressed and EQ'd it so it needs no further processing, and if evrryone did this they would end up with a power amp a.d a abrogated big twin.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1372948724' post='2132036']


No, Nigel, that's exactly the point. I'm not talking about the 'stage' time, but the time spent beforehand setting up the pedal board presets and all. Our Tom has zero presets, in rehearsal as on stage. He plugs in, turns up the 'pre' to 12 o'clock, and 'Master' to as required for volume. End of. He doesn't (and doesn't want or need to...) programme anything. He did that with the GT-6b, and decided (rightly, in my view, too...) that it wasn't adding anything that justified the messing around. Plug the bass in and play. The sound will be fine (with good gear, of course...) The rest is in his fingers...
[/quote]
But loads of people are buying and selling amps and cabs to find their tone, what a massive gaff that is, and damn expensive, troublesome and time consuming. I love programming patches anyway, I love getting great sounds that inspire me and suit the music. What about people who need different sounds for different songs, and different bands?

[Dad3353]

I just thought I'd add: what does your drummer use..? An electronic kit..? Do you play to a 'beat box'..? ...or a laptop..? I play acoustic drums, and find the nuances for different styles in our repertoire by judicious sticking (or brushes, or whatever...). I don't need to change a kit for another, or press a button to change the sound of my snare, or toms, or cymbals. I play with what I have ('skills' included...) Why the 'need' for 'different' sounds throughout the evening..? One drumkit does all we need; one bass rig does the same.
How does it go, that expression..? Oh yes... "Why do things simply if you can do them complicated..?" Not for me, I afraid.
Just sayin'

[tayste_2000]

I would suggest a happy medium of a POD and then something like a Berg IP cab or powered cab.

You will need to be trying your patches out with something like this as you'll find the difference between setting them at home and then using them live to be massive and you'll likely have volume jumps all over the place.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1372949341' post='2132040']
I just thought I'd add: what does your drummer use..? An electronic kit..? Do you play to a 'beat box'..? ...or a laptop..? I play acoustic drums, and find the nuances for different styles in our repertoire by judicious sticking (or brushes, or whatever...). I don't need to change a kit for another, or press a button to change the sound of my snare, or toms, or cymbals. I play with what I have ('skills' included...) Why the 'need' for 'different' sounds throughout the evening..? One drumkit does all we need; one bass rig does the same.
How does it go, that expression..? Oh yes... "Why do things simply if you can do them complicated..?" Not for me, I afraid.
Just sayin'
[/quote]

Thought that question would come up

All the drummers I play with use an acoustic kit, sometimes augmented with a SPDS. leccy kits sound good but they are much more expensive if you want the feel of an acoustic kit and a flexible enough brain. The acoustic kits are nearly always miced. The fact is, there is not a comparable situation with drums like their is with bass and guitars.

Does your keys player rock up to gigs with a baby grand?

[Judo Chop]

I just think they look cool

[xilddx]

[quote name='tayste_2000' timestamp='1372949345' post='2132041']
I would suggest a happy medium of a POD and then something like a Berg IP cab or powered cab.

You will need to be trying your patches out with something like this as you'll find the difference between setting them at home and then using them live to be massive and you'll likely have volume jumps all over the place.
[/quote]

I use studio headphones and my little studio monitors to create patches, almost lab conditions. Had no problems geting levels right. I always eq & level test and tweak with the bands' music playing. Had no problems with that so far.

[xilddx]

[quote name='iceonaboy' timestamp='1372950115' post='2132055']
[i]We play small to mid sized venues with no monitors, or even room for monitors, so a cab is the minimum I need for getting my sound[/i]
[/quote]
There are mid size venues with no monitors?! How in god's name does your singer manage?

Edited July 4, 2013 by xilddx

[JTUK]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1372949128' post='2132039']
But loads of people are buying and selling amps and cabs to find their tone, what a massive gaff that is, and damn expensive, troublesome and time consuming. I love programming patches anyway, I love getting great sounds that inspire me and suit the music. What about people who need different sounds for different songs, and different bands?
[/quote]

I use a GT10-b and it is isn't bad. It isn't a total solution as it is plan A and then nothing.
And do I think it is better than my A rig anyway... not a chance, but that is just me.

People want to know my bass is there... not on the track, but IN it... and they want to play with it..and me vice versa..and then ditto, the band. Would I put that down to chance and turn up to a gig and hope it will alright on the night..?
This is why I'll be talking to the P.A beforehand, but again...you need to know what they say is true, not what they want you to hear.
I generally get round this by telling them we want the whole band through the monitors and then that seems to focus a few things..

I think the best performances we give tend to come when we have a very good stage sound and everyone is adapting the parts on the fly... as that way we all connect the best. That is the juice, for me.

[JTUK]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1372950184' post='2132057']
Thought that question would come up

All the drummers I play with use an acoustic kit, sometimes augmented with a SPDS. leccy kits sound good but they are much more expensive if you want the feel of an acoustic kit and a flexible enough brain. The acoustic kits are nearly always miced. The fact is, there is not a comparable situation with drums like their is with bass and guitars.

[b]Does your keys player rock up to gigs with a baby grand?[/b]
[/quote]

No, but it sounds like it...

If you are talking about not mic'ing the kit,...??? apples and oranges..!!

You want the feel of the drums ...or to FEEL the drums.?

Edited July 4, 2013 by JTUK

[xilddx]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1372950794' post='2132064']
No, but it sounds like it...

If you are talking about not mic'ing the kit,...??? apples and oranges..!!

You want the feel of the drums ...or to FEEL the drums.?
[/quote]

I'm not with you old egg, would you explain?

[JTUK]

I don't think lab level patches amp up consistantly...
You are hampered by that patch suiting that bass... change the bass..use another patch... but may have to tweak on the fly.
Not sure how many times you get 10secs in a song to do that..

All this isn't silly stuff... but it is asking for more work..

It just seems like introducing so many variables to suit the fact that you can't/don't carry backline.

It isn't a compromise for me.
If i take my amp..then band know what they will get..as do I.. and if no bass thru the P.A, so do the audience.
If we use bass in FOH...then the band still know they will GET me..
If we can bleed the bass into a mon mix, then all good, but not for 2 mon mixes... again that is asking for trouble.

It is all about control for me...and an amp/cab will give it the most..IME.

[JTUK]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1372950979' post='2132065']
I'm not with you old egg, would you explain?
[/quote]

Not really..if you don't get it..you don't get it..
I think this thread is a reaction to another one anyway which probably hit a sore spot...so I take it as a bit of a wind-up, tbh.

If you are happy with a POD ..then its your gig.

Edited July 4, 2013 by JTUK

[xilddx]

[quote name='SpaceChick' timestamp='1372947838' post='2132016']
This!

I trust my kit, its decent stuff.

Would much rather plug my trusty GT10b into something that didnt give me a work out every time I'd need to move it and require a van to transport it though if I'm honest
[/quote]

I'd get a powered monitor like a Mackie SRM in that case, Debs. I was toying with getting one, or a Barefaced Midget and a power amp.

[BigRedX]

Nige, as you know I'm a big fan of the Pod. I have two - one permanently wired into my bass rig and a second stand-alone unit that I take when I'm sharing someone else's bass amp at a multi-band gig

Let's leave aside the "Digital Modelling" words, because I don't see/hear it as such mostly because I have no idea what the various "classic" amps it's supposed to be copying sound like. As far as I am concerned it's simply a programmable EQ and effects unit. I have a bunch of patches that I've set up to go with my favourite basses for the various songs that I play. I've ignored what the amp presets are called and simply gone with what sounds good when I play my bass through it with the rest of my band playing along.

I still use an amp and speakers on stage simply because at the level of venues the Terrortones are currently playing the foldback is barely good enough for vocals let alone any instruments putting out extreme low frequencies. Plus the PA engineers really don't like it when you jam the headstock of your bass into the wedge monitor in order to sustain that note! IMO wedge monitors are designed for vocals and that's what they do best. Every other instrument that you put through them makes it hard for the singer(s) to hear what they are doing and therefore is going to negatively impact on their performance.

In a previous life I played in a synth band that had no backline. Everything went directly into the PA. Getting to gigs was easy and the FoH sound was always good (if a little quiet compared with bands that had drums and guitar amps) but on stage it was always a struggle getting mix where the singers could hear well enough to tell if they were in tune and everyone could actually hear the drum machine and sequenced parts to play in time with them. Then we acquired a pair of our own wedge monitors and a power amp. Using those on stage for the instruments and leaving the main PA foldback for the vocals and suddenly we could hear everything properly and performing on stage became so much easier. That taught me a lot about how to get a decent sound on stage that allows the musicians to be comfortable.

[xilddx]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1372951579' post='2132071']
Not really..if you don't get it..you don't get it..
I think this thread is a reaction to another one anyway which probably hit a sore spot...so I take it as a bit of a wind-up, tbh.

If you are happy with a POD ..then its your gig.
[/quote]
I couldn't understand what you wrote, your last few posts are very difficult to make sense of grammatically, I couldn't understand what you were trying to say. That's why I asked. OK?

It's not a wind up, I am very interested, and it's an interesting subject. If you want to put across your opinions, do it legibly. Don't react like an impatient arsey f***er when I ask a simple question. I've been polite haven't I? Why do I deserve this petulant sh*t from you?

[Conan]

My band has a small PA and we only put the vocals through it. The only monitor wedge "we" use is owned by the drummer, who uses it to boost the level of his kick drum only. We also take a feed from the desk into this monitor to get a very basic (and fairly quiet ) vocal foldback...

No way could we put bass through that PA and even if we did there would be no useful way to monitor it.

My amp and cab form my monitor and provide the bass sound that the audience hears. That's why I need it.

Every pub band I have played in did things pretty much this way.

That said, if we turned up to a gig where there was a decent PA, monitoring and sound man; and he suggested DI'ing the bass straight into the desk -I would be perfectly happy to do that. I am not precious about "my tone" particularly (and it comes primarily from my bass anyway) - but I do need to hear myself on stage.

As with many questions regarding sound and gear, the answer seems to be a resounding "it depends"!!

Edited July 4, 2013 by Conan

[Dingus]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1372944486' post='2131932']
Let's get this bit out the way first, ok? Digital modeling - Boss GT10B, POD XT/X3, and active DI's like SansAmp, Hartke VXL, etc, if used properly, can and do sound indistinguishable from an amp and cab rig in your FoH sound. You need to take this for granted if you don't believe me. I'll go one further and say the same is true for studio recordings but that's another story.

The only advantage of using and amp and cab that I can work out from what people say on here is that it can make you trousers flap on stage, which to me is not a sensible reason at all. Most monitors are capable of pumping out some good bass for your reference.

Quality digi modeling/effects units and active DIs offer (over amp and cab rigs) huge versatility and portability, consistent sound quality with most stage and room characteristics, reliability, simplicity of deployment, massive cost savings, less prone to damage, don't need to keep changing them in your quest for TONE, geezers in other bands never ask to borrow them for their set, you can't stand a pint on them .. Need I go on?

It's beyond me why anyone would have the pain and worry of cab placement problems in auditoriums, needing gramma pads, transport issues, bad backs, lending them to other bands, very little versatility, easily damaged, buying and selling to find YOUR TONE, upsizing, downsizing, two rigs for different size gigs, getting them up and down narrow stairs ...

So why do you REALLY insist on having amps and cabs? Fear of digital sound being unpredictable or sounding crap? Need a big old rig behind you to feel safe? Ignorance of going direct? Need a massive bass sound on stage? Can't be bothered to f*** about learning how to programme patches? Nostalgia? Inertia? ...

I'm genuinely interested to know.
[/quote]

Well , for a start I do not accept for one moment your assertion that the digital modelling equipment you mention is a direct replacement for real amps and cabs in terms of front of house sound , except in so much as , for various reasons that I'm sure we are all only all too familiar with , front of house sound is so variable and unpredictable that any equpiment can end up sounding crap . I am fairly familiar with the POD and the Sansamp and I don't like either for differing reasons . In the case of the Sansamp I find it to have a very identifiable signature sound that is not to my taste , and I can pick it out on certain recordings to the extent that it has become a kind of bass - sound - by - numbers . The POD is OK and very convenient and I have used one for recording in the past but the problem I find with all digital modelling devices for bass that I have tried is that they definitely sound a bit " plinky " in the high frequencies . They also don't sound as transparent in terms of dynamics as a good amp and can setup to my tastes . Don't get me wrong , I do use digital modelling and find it very convenient and useful for recording , and a lot of fun too , and I'm sure that it will get better and better in years to come , but in absolute terms it can't match a conventional amp and cabs yet , and not by a long way . That said , if it works for you then why worry ? I regulaly hear bass players with fantastic conventional analogue amplification who sound practically inaudible , and if you are getting a good clear sound with digital then that is all you need . There are , after all , more than one way of skinning a cat , as the saying goes .

[Wooks79]

When we say 'digital modelling' what sort of ear are we talking?

I only ask cos I watched the rig rundown for Billy Corgan's stuff recently and he has loads of old amps digitally recreated for him to use live, and wondered what stuff like this is more widely commercially available without having the income of Bily Corgan?

I'm all for it in theory, but when I've played with the little things like a POD or a sansamp, it's not quite done it for me, but it is something of consider if I found the right kit...

[Wooks79]

...gear, not ear

[jezzaboy]

I tried it a one gig a couple of years ago. I plugged into my Sansamp, used a Wharfdale powered monitor and put the sound through the pa. But I found that the sound from the amp was what I missed. I imagine that with good monitors, a good pa and a sound guy, it would be cool.

But there was a good covers band that gigged around my area that had what I mentioned above and the guitar and bass sound was always crap. The drums sounded good though.

There is another thought. If you have to drag a decent monitor around with you, would you not be better having a lightweight bass amp?

Edited July 4, 2013 by jezzaboy

[Conan]

[quote name='jezzaboy' timestamp='1372953958' post='2132113'] If you have to drag a decent monitor around with you, would you not be better having a lightweight bass amp?
[/quote]

I'd have thought so too...

[Andyjr1515]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1372951855' post='2132074']
In a previous life I played in a synth band that had no backline. Everything went directly into the PA. Getting to gigs was easy and the FoH sound was always good (if a little quiet compared with bands that had drums and guitar amps) but on stage it was always a struggle getting mix where the singers could hear well enough to tell if they were in tune and everyone could actually hear the drum machine and sequenced parts to play in time with them. Then we acquired a pair of our own wedge monitors and a power amp. Using those on stage for the instruments and leaving the main PA foldback for the vocals and suddenly we could hear everything properly and performing on stage became so much easier. That taught me a lot about how to get a decent sound on stage that allows the musicians to be comfortable.
[/quote]
There's a lot here I would agree with. Clearly, personal experience, but for what its worth:
We put everything through our own PA (small / medium venues 400 max) except the drums that has its own amp for the electric kit or acoustic if the stage is big enough.
Our FOH is MILES better than any other band we have played with (and they all say 'we must give that a go') because it avoids the 'deafness creep'of each player turning up to hear themselves and also to 'cut through the mix' - a joke really when they have their own 50 watts right behind them...exactly whose mix are they trying to cut through . To the audience, this ends up as just a b****y ear-wrecking white-crackling noise.
BUT and it is a BIG BUT - monitoring is a problem. We have a couple of wedge monitors and our main vocalist also takes an aux monitor off the PA into a single earpiece to hear himself and his own instruments. The rest of us have a general band mix through the wedges. This is then the problem area - getting the wedges loud enough without ending up with feedback.
We are investigating in-ear but individual mixes are v expensive. The cheap step is to have in-ear with the general mix which MAY be good enough. I'll let you know.
Anyway, back to the FOH - we get asked back to venues because 'your sound is so good' (and that's not to do with the quality of our playing ) and we can absolutely control the volume with a balanced mix from unobtrusive background for people who've come to talk to each other, through to venues where people just want to dance to a wall of sound.
I'm sure many of you will disagree with this approach but, what the hell...

Andy

[Oopsdabassist]

In response to original question, simple answer is, vocal only PA, no monitors= no choice.

I played at a jam night a week or so back, with full PA and 4 or 5 monitors, plugged in and went, it was lovely, just a luxury my bands can't afford.

[wateroftyne]

Simpl reason fer me - I want to be in charge of what I hear on the stage.