What's the real reason you want amps & cabs on stage? Rather than a POD/SansAmp etc.

[discreet]

I play in a rock band. If I didn't use a rig it would be gay. Really gay.

[icastle]

Well I'll be dead honest.

I'm a creature of habit.
I've worked with cab(s) and amp on stages for nearly 35 years and that's just not a habit I see any need to break.
Yeah, I'm getting older but I still know how to lift things up and have never had so much as a twinge in any part of my body whilst moving my kit around.

I've tried using a floorpod and got so confused with the hundreds of available settings that, for me, it just wasn't worth using as I just don't need to have all those options - not a case of me not trusting the technology, more a case of me not trusting myself to use it properly and being to stubborn to learn something I couldn't see adding any value to what I already have.

Yes, I'm sure that I have ancestors who used to drop their clogs into machinery...

[JapanAxe]

99% of the gigs I play involve a smallish PA that is used for vocals only. If I were to run my bass into the PA, there just wouldn't be the headroom. For the remaining 1%, at least I have a decent sound on stage that I can work with, even if the sound engineer [s]ruins[/s] changes it for FOH.

[JTUK]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1372952527' post='2132082']
I couldn't understand what you wrote, your last few posts are very difficult to make sense of grammatically, I couldn't understand what you were trying to say. That's why I asked. OK?

It's not a wind up, I am very interested, and it's an interesting subject. If you want to put across your opinions, do it legibly. Don't react like an impatient arsey f***er when I ask a simple question. I've been polite haven't I? Why do I deserve this petulant sh*t from you?
[/quote]

I thought your question was a bit intense..and you aren't above a little mischief if and when in the mood.
Not a problem for me.
but your opinion seems the complete opposite to mine..
I was happy to leave it at that...no point is going round in circles saying the same thing and ending up at the same place.

As I say, its your gig..I assume it works for all the guys on it. It wouldn't work on mine.

[3below]

Several reasons for 'real bass rig'. Play in a range of bands, some have (big, medium, small) pa, some do not. Pod is not simple plug and play, some thought is needed (I want a bass box that has a rotary control with, Hiwatt, Marshall, Acoustic, TE, MB, TC, Ampeg sound) - I have thought about using pod etc to power amp + speaker cab, I have one. I am old school, I plug it in, it sounds somewhere between crap - ok - good. My main band is a 4/5 piece, range of venues, drums, guitars x 2, plus singer who plays guitar. PA for vocals, small pack size, guitars use small 20W combos, how much volume do you need (I use 700W and Barefaced Dubster). As a 'small' band we should be able to do small-medium gigs with own amps/cabs and small vocals pa, is about discipline and attitude. However my main reason - I have a nice bass tone (I like it), I want to hear it with trouser flap, want to feel it, this is part of the fun.

[LukeFRC]

I think there are a number of things here....

Would I be happy without an amp? Just through the PA? Yes given a good foldback monitor (see the thread on this in the amp section about using PA gear instead/as an amp) - I would quite happily just plug straight into a DI box, my basses, and my playing, is good enough that that works for me. In some cases it is easier than having your own amp and you can get a better onstage and FOH mix.

Would I use a modeling amp? No not in a million years! I've tried and I found.... it wasn't great at adjusting on the fly, and every one i've tried has had an effect seeming to compress my tone and dynamics in a very non natural and musical way.
In the same way I've played live with our drummer using a top-of-the-range very very nice electronic drum kit- sounded immense from the FOH - but to play along with their seems to be so much compression going on.... you loose something. So I don't like the modeling stuff I've tried.... they also confuse me... cos I don't get why anyone would... well if I were wanting to go that route I really don't know why I wouldn't buy an audio interface... cos I'm pretty sure my macbook can act as better audio processor, with more options at hand and easily editable, than pretty much anything line 6 make.... or if I were going the other way, analogue effects/preamp into a DI would give many of the same effects - with the bonus that you could build them yourself....

I think also having worked PA a fair bit- if the POD mixes that sound good with clinical headphones how do you know they won't turn out to have massive variations between patches when played through the idiocyncracies of a live PA and specific rooms? It's not going to behave in the same way. One patch sounds great, next song switch to a patch where the preset EQ on your POD, plus the EQ on the desk, plus the resonant freq. of the room, plus the speakers built in Eq..... and what does the PA guy have to change your FOH eq every time you change a patch?

[JapanAxe]

☝☝Yup - patch change volume jumps can be really hard to deal with on any multi-fx - they sound fine at home volumes, but all over the place at gig level.

[ead]

Where we play less than 10% of the venue have a PA so it's pretty much a backline with a small PA for the vocals and acoustic guitars Plus being an old git I'd need somebody to teach me slowly and patiently how this stuff works assuming the band could afford the kit.

[gjones]

I played a couple of gigs recently with different bands. The first one was where I, and everyone else in the band, were DI'd and the second one was with my bass amp. The sound was great for both. But the reason I brought my amp with me for the second was because I knew I would be competing with a stupidly loud guitarist, going through a VOX AC30. I placed my amp on a table at ear level with the volume turned down and used it as my own personal monitor.

[peteb]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1372969645' post='2132361']


No disrespect your mate but thats clearly bollocks since you often see major acts using them in televised events where multiple bands are doing short sets (e.g. live 8).
[/quote]
Well you obviously seem to know more than a guy who's earnt a lot of money working with some very big names!

Out of interest, who on Live 8 was using a pod??

[Billy Apple]

f*** your POD, I've a Matamp outside.. [size=4] [/size]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljPFZrRD3J8"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljPFZrRD3J8[/url]

For no other reason than just for the fun of having it.

[skankdelvar]

Even if a DM set-up was agreed to be feasible across most gigging situations, I'd still keep the old faithful.

Simply for the pleasure of those lovely, after-gig chats with punters who are bursting to tell you that their mate says Ashdowns are sh*t.

[discreet]

Seriously though... yes, a rig. And should there happen to be a great PA with top monitoring and a sympathetic sound guy (or gal) then I'm always more than happy to turn down as much as is necessary for a good show.

[MiltyG565]

People just like to see a rig, don't they?

There was a picture floating around a week or 2 ago with some deathcore band that had fake Marshall cabs on stage. Why? Just for the look. People like to see it. Of course though, a fake cab is probably a lot easier to manage than a real one.

[Ziphoblat]

1. Sound. As a big enthusiast of amp modelling and such, ultimately it is an imitation and isn't (currently at least) quite the same as the real thing. If I had the money sat around for a Matamp rig, I'd buy one.

2. Volume on stage. I don't like having to rely on the soundguy to hear myself on stage. Perhaps more comfortably done if I know the venue and soundguy, but it's a risk I'm not willing to take. Soundguys idea of what's an adequate level, and what actually constitutes an adequate level can often be very far apart (and that's not because I want to be too loud). That's assuming of course that the gear is up to the job of monitoring bass, which isn't always the case.

3. I own it for recording anyway, it enhances my live experience; why not take it and use it?

[Jah Wibble]

Not wanting to be the hippy of the bunch, but why not have both at your disposal
f there's a gig that someone has asked me to do and I want to do it, I'd rather not be held back by equipment and there are times (like last night) when it's easier to DI.
Time constraints, travel - living in central london can be a nightmare if someone askes you to play at short notice and you haven't got time to worry about parking, traffic ect..

But if you have the time and you care enough, go through your amp. I think it looks f*****g weird watching a band with no amps, and sheeeeeeeeeit, if people are paying to see you why not put a bit of extra effort it? It's not Guitar Hero..

Edited July 5, 2013 by Jah Wibble

[lowdown]

[quote name='Jah Wibble' timestamp='1373030250' post='2132981']
I think it looks f*****g weird watching a band with no amps[/quote]

I know what you mean, it kinda reminds me of the Stonehenge scene, when looking at a lonely little POD on the floor.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAXzzHM8zLw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qAXzzHM8zLw[/url]


Garry

[Telebass]

[quote name='JellyKnees' timestamp='1372945495' post='2131956']
The rig-less approach is probably fine if you are playing in a larger venue through a PA with decent stage monitors and you trust the sound engineer, or you are in a pro band playing with high quality in ear monitors or whatnot, but if you are playing down the old Cock and Pullet then you probably won't have such luxuries at your disposal...

I use some amp modelling and quite a lot of effects through my markbass/barefaced big one setup - its an exceptionally clean amp/cab combo so most of my 'tone' comes from the bass/effects etc, but ultimately I like to be able to control my onstage level and tweak the tone accordingly. Its also a ridiculously lightweight rig so moving it is a doddle tbh. Also I don't generally lend my gear out.

Its not a problem for what I do, although in principle I agree with you.
[/quote]
Basically, this, although I don't use any effects or modelling. Pub gigs need backline. Simples.

[Jah Wibble]

Man that clip cheered me up so much!

Cheers Gary

Edited July 5, 2013 by Jah Wibble

[Ben Jamin]

I don't think there's any tangible difference in set-up time. It doesn't take me much longer to connect a speak-on from my amp to my cab than it takes to run an XLR to a desk. In-fact arguably it'd take longer to set up a bigger PA and run a more complex monitor mix. My amp (Ampeg PF500) is smaller (or at least the same size) and much easier to use than a Pod. My cab (Barefaced Compact) weighs less than my bass in it's gigbag is is considerably smaller than the equivalent PA subs/monitors that would otherwise be required. Mainly though, my rig gives me the freedom to play in pretty much any venue (as long as there's electricity). In the bigger venues I play with big PA I will quite happily DI out/mic up and use my cab/in-ears for monitoring. In the smaller venues - pubs/outside marquees/rehearsal rooms with a small PA etc then my rig is required for obvious reasons. Either way with my set up I can get a consistent sound and adjust it easily with my amp/bass/fingers.
Most of the venues I play are fairly big and have a more than adequate PA to run bass through, but for everything else, which there is still a lot of, a Pod just won't cut it - ultimately for me it's just needlessly complicated in terms of programming (I run my amp generally flat and use my bass' pick-up configurations/tone controls/playing technique to change sound) and impractical in terms of the lack of an output of any actual sound.
I can appreciate that works for you but I'd seriously challenge you to try a rig for a while, maybe see if you can borrow something for a while, and see how you like it - just being able to walk into any old venue and gig in it with no hassle with a easily equalised quality sound that doesn't rely on the quality of a PA.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Ben Jamin

[Lord Sausage]

I do both depending on circumstance!

[Lord Sausage]

I do both depending on circumstance!

[scalpy]

Amp on stage because it's fun.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Ben Jamin' timestamp='1373069558' post='2133540']
My cab (Barefaced Compact) weighs less than my bass in it's gigbag is is considerably smaller than the equivalent PA subs/monitors that would otherwise be required. Mainly though, my rig gives me the freedom to play in pretty much any venue (as long as there's electricity).
[/quote]

Thats probably the main factor for me too. Barefaced cabs in particular give a low frequency db per KG ratio that is simply unmatchable outside extremely expensive specialist lightweight PA gear. This is especially true when someone else in the band owns and transports the PA - if I wanted to play rigless I'd have to buy us a better PA and transport the entire thing to gigs myself since the one we current use cant cope with much more than vocals.

Anyway I've got nothing against simulators, indeed as I've already said my RH450 is essentially a simulator with built in power amp. With regards to the whole simulator vs real amp debate, I used to know a guitarist who had the most severe case of tone OCD that I've ever come across. He owned at various times every amp Id ever heard of including various boutique hand made valve amps, he even starting designing his own and selling them. However when went giging he generally used to take ... his line 6 combo ...

Edited July 6, 2013 by bassman7755

[4000]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1372944486' post='2131932']
Let's get this bit out the way first, ok? Digital modeling - Boss GT10B, POD XT/X3, and active DI's like SansAmp, Hartke VXL, etc, if used properly, can and do sound indistinguishable from an amp and cab rig in your FoH sound. You need to take this for granted if you don't believe me. I'll go one further and say the same is true for studio recordings but that's another story.

The only advantage of using and amp and cab that I can work out from what people say on here is that it can make you trousers flap on stage, which to me is not a sensible reason at all. Most monitors are capable of pumping out some good bass for your reference.

Quality digi modeling/effects units and active DIs offer (over amp and cab rigs) huge versatility and portability, consistent sound quality with most stage and room characteristics, reliability, simplicity of deployment, massive cost savings, less prone to damage, don't need to keep changing them in your quest for TONE, geezers in other bands never ask to borrow them for their set, you can't stand a pint on them .. Need I go on?

It's beyond me why anyone would have the pain and worry of cab placement problems in auditoriums, needing gramma pads, transport issues, bad backs, lending them to other bands, very little versatility, easily damaged, buying and selling to find YOUR TONE, upsizing, downsizing, two rigs for different size gigs, getting them up and down narrow stairs ...

So why do you REALLY insist on having amps and cabs? Fear of digital sound being unpredictable or sounding crap? Need a big old rig behind you to feel safe? Ignorance of going direct? Need a massive bass sound on stage? Can't be bothered to f*** about learning how to programme patches? Nostalgia? Inertia? ...

I'm genuinely interested to know.
[/quote]

For much of my 'career' I've played gigs in venues where there is no (or minimal) pa and no monitoring whatsoever and you're not being paid enough to hire anything decent, so the rig has been used for backlining - otherwise known as trying to be heard over the drummer - while the vocals go through whatever pa you have. I'd say the majority of venues I've played in over 30 years fall into this category (mostly Oop North Nige, where we have to live in cardboard boxes & eat gravel off t'street ). It was different in my London days, where we always had/hired full (and expensive) pas.

Thankfully these days I play in an acoustic band where the stage volume is negligible and you can hear yourself coming off the front even without monitors (although we do normally carry a small monitor now). The majority of gigs I just use my Sansamp, occasionally resorting to my Hartke Kickback 10 if absolutely necessary. Either way it's bliss and I'm in no hurry to go back. I've never been one for stage volume; how people do smallish venues with 8x10s and similar is utterly beyond me. I played the Marquee in a rock band with a 150W amp and only had it on 3.