What's the real reason you want amps & cabs on stage? Rather than a POD/SansAmp etc.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1372944486' post='2131932']
Let's get this bit out the way first, ok? Digital modeling - Boss GT10B, POD XT/X3, and active DI's like SansAmp, Hartke VXL, etc, if used properly, can and do sound indistinguishable from an amp and cab rig in your FoH sound. You need to take this for granted if you don't believe me. I'll go one further and say the same is true for studio recordings but that's another story.

The only advantage of using and amp and cab that I can work out from what people say on here is that it can make you trousers flap on stage, which to me is not a sensible reason at all. Most monitors are capable of pumping out some good bass for your reference.

Quality digi modeling/effects units and active DIs offer (over amp and cab rigs) huge versatility and portability, consistent sound quality with most stage and room characteristics, reliability, simplicity of deployment, massive cost savings, less prone to damage, don't need to keep changing them in your quest for TONE, geezers in other bands never ask to borrow them for their set, you can't stand a pint on them .. Need I go on?

It's beyond me why anyone would have the pain and worry of cab placement problems in auditoriums, needing gramma pads, transport issues, bad backs, lending them to other bands, very little versatility, easily damaged, buying and selling to find YOUR TONE, upsizing, downsizing, two rigs for different size gigs, getting them up and down narrow stairs ...

So why do you REALLY insist on having amps and cabs? Fear of digital sound being unpredictable or sounding crap? Need a big old rig behind you to feel safe? Ignorance of going direct? Need a massive bass sound on stage? Can't be bothered to f*** about learning how to programme patches? Nostalgia? Inertia? ...

I'm genuinely interested to know.
[/quote]

For me its just the simplest/lightest/most convenient way to having something that can provide both on-stage and out front sound. I use a RH450 which is pretty much a "simulator" with a built in power amp.

[Roland Rock]

Reasons off he top of my head, based on my experience:

1: We often play gigs where the sound engineer only wants vocals through the PA.
2: When playing through the PA, the monitoring is often crap, or even non existent!
3: It may seem like a faf to you, but constantly searching for 'the perfect tone' and buying and selling all the time is an enjoyable pastime for some.
4: The PA in our practice room won't handle bass as well as vocals.
5: It's the 'done thing', just as our fathers and their fathers before them have done. Maybe.

[lojo]

Last summer I nearly did the no amp thing at a small festival, but I bottled it and needed to be sure my amp was with me (i only took a 210, the band before had an 810, so that also made me think I should bring something on at least)

Ive heard awefull out front bass tone before when walking forward, at least if I enjoy my tone I will play relaxed, if the foldback doesnt sound great, it will kill my gig completely

Mainly though, I only play small venues and pubs, where a good amp is crucial, also NIgel (the OP) for sure plays nicer gigs than me where he may be sure of getting a decent sound.

Edited July 4, 2013 by lojo

[tayste_2000]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1372950373' post='2132060']
I use studio headphones and my little studio monitors to create patches, almost lab conditions. Had no problems geting levels right. I always eq & level test and tweak with the bands' music playing. Had no problems with that so far.
[/quote]

My only comment would be that live is far from lab conditions, don't get me wrong I'm all for what you're doing, I ran my pedalboard for years where that was my tone and the amp didn't matter and I would send this to the front of house and just use whatever piece of crap they had available on stage.

I found it much more satisfactory to have an amp, but I was rocking a 200w valve head and 8x10 and have transport for such a rig through friends who tour manage (taxi'd around for a minimal fee) but as I don't drive I have often considered a rig like this and actually went as far as working it through with an Ipad which saved even more space as I carry the Ipad everywhere (obviously this approach is easier and cheaper if you already have an Ipad) and I have to say with apps like Amplitube and Jamup the sound quality (imho) is every bit that of a Pod.

The monitoring here is key really, if you can manage with wired IEM go that route and get a decent molded set, then down the line look to change this element to wireless, that way you can always hear yourself and if the PA can't take the bass, someone somewhere at the gig will have something you can use.

[tayste_2000]

[quote name='Wooks79' timestamp='1372953759' post='2132108']
When we say 'digital modelling' what sort of ear are we talking?

I only ask cos I watched the rig rundown for Billy Corgan's stuff recently and he has loads of old amps digitally recreated for him to use live, and wondered what stuff like this is more widely commercially available without having the income of Bily Corgan?

I'm all for it in theory, but when I've played with the little things like a POD or a sansamp, it's not quite done it for me, but it is something of consider if I found the right kit...
[/quote]

i tried running a Pod into a 400w valve power amp and it still didn't do it for me

You'll never get that heft of a proper valve amp with a simulator but same goes with all these small hybrid heads that are all the rage. Now simulators can get everything they do and more.

[BigRedX]

It's a paradox...

I think a lot of us would dump the amp and speaker cabs for the sake of convenience, comfort and extra stage space, if we could be sure of getting a great sound on stage. However the average small gig PA system can barely cope with a full band sound FoH let alone through the foldback as well. By the time you are regularly playing gigs where the foldback can give you the full sound you want, you're probably also employing a road crew to do all that tedious equipment carrying and setting up for you and lack of room on stage is no longer a concern, so you might as well use that big all-valve amp and speaker stack!

[xgsjx]

If I didn't have a rig then most venues I play I'd be playing electric bass acoustically, so I'd be as well not turning up.

2x10 Combo is ample though as bigger venues usually have PA.

[neepheid]

I have played gigs with no PA whatsoever. Hotels, marquees, that kind of thing. I have played gigs in small places where it's just easier for me to bring the bass rather than further potter about with whatever PA is there. I also like to have some control over my own monitoring, because with the best will in the world, the sound engineer is a human being and isn't always going to get it right for you.

Also, call it paranoia if you wish but can't help feeling that you're looking down your nose as you type.

[thisnameistaken]

I've got a fairly portable rig anyway - I can carry the cab in one hand and the amp weighs a little more than a bag of sugar - so I wouldn't gain much from using a Pod. Also I like the sound I get from my amp. It's easy to get a nice sound that doesn't swamp the stage in bass, and using backline leaves the foldback monitors for vox and brass. I sing harmony as well as play bass, so it's important that I can hear my vocal well.

At the places I usually rehearse I don't imagine the bass would work very well through the PA. Also if I go for a jam at someone's house to work on songs or whatever, there is no PA. So I've got to have an amp for those scenarios, and if I can use it for monitoring at larger gigs too then what's the reason I'd want a Line 6 processor *as well* as an amp/cab?

[Fat Rich]

[quote name='lojo' timestamp='1372956452' post='2132152']
Last summer I nearly did the no amp thing at a small festival, but I bottled it and needed to be sure my amp was with me (i only took a 210, the band before had an 810, so that also made me think I should bring something on at least)
..........
[/quote]

There's definitely a comfort thing about having a big amp behind you, even if you can't hear the bloomin thing. Having no amp would feel like going on stage without your trousers, not something I'd repeat in a hurry.

Interesting thread this, I've been thinking life would be a lot convenient without a big amp.

[peteb]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1372944486' post='2131932']
Let's get this bit out the way first, ok? Digital modeling - Boss GT10B, POD XT/X3, and active DI's like SansAmp, Hartke VXL, etc, if used properly, can and do sound indistinguishable from an amp and cab rig in your FoH sound. You need to take this for granted if you don't believe me. I'll go one further and say the same is true for studio recordings but that's another story.

The only advantage of using and amp and cab that I can work out from what people say on here is that it can make you trousers flap on stage, which to me is not a sensible reason at all. Most monitors are capable of pumping out some good bass for your reference.

Quality digi modeling/effects units and active DIs offer (over amp and cab rigs) huge versatility and portability, consistent sound quality with most stage and room characteristics, reliability, simplicity of deployment, massive cost savings, less prone to damage, don't need to keep changing them in your quest for TONE, geezers in other bands never ask to borrow them for their set, you can't stand a pint on them .. Need I go on?

It's beyond me why anyone would have the pain and worry of cab placement problems in auditoriums, needing gramma pads, transport issues, bad backs, lending them to other bands, very little versatility, easily damaged, buying and selling to find YOUR TONE, upsizing, downsizing, two rigs for different size gigs, getting them up and down narrow stairs ...

So why do you REALLY insist on having amps and cabs? Fear of digital sound being unpredictable or sounding crap? Need a big old rig behind you to feel safe? Ignorance of going direct? Need a massive bass sound on stage? Can't be bothered to f*** about learning how to programme patches? Nostalgia? Inertia? ...

I'm genuinely interested to know.
[/quote]
First of all – I am not a fan of any modeling units that I have come across, especially Pods. We could argue about this all night but when it comes down to it, you like them and I’m not keen. All I can say that a mate of mine (probably the best guitarist that I have played with) runs a pretty successful PA hire & installation company that supplies gear for major tours & events as well as installing AV kit for airports around Europe. He really knows his stuff and has made a very good living dealing with cutting edge pro audio gear on a daily basis. He uses a Mesa Boogie amp! When I asked him about his opinion of modeling amps he said that some sounded ok in a small room or on tape but they still haven’t made one that works with a band live on stage!

Active DIs for bass is another thing entirely and some of them are very good. Some of the bigger gigs that I do are medium size festivals where there is a house rig that may be good or cr*p and will probably have a DI straight off the bass. If I start doing more of these gigs I would love to get a unit like a Tonebone, so that I can control what I hear on stage and what goes straight to FOH. However, if you are not using an amp on stage you are [b]very[/b] reliant on getting a decent monitor mix, which as we all know doesn’t always happen if you are not headlining!

Another advantage of having a decent rig is of course that you can play pubs and smaller gigs without having to go thru the PA, leaving FOH to just take care of vocals & drums yet alone problems with not so great monitors you might find with a smaller PA at a pub gig.

Of course, this is based on my experience i.e. playing with pretty loud drummers and only really using the one bass sound. I know that a pod is way more portable than even a small amp and it’s up to you if you decide if that is worth the compromise. I certainly would not want to do the gigs that I do without an amp on stage….

[MrRatty]

I've never tried this approach but I feel that removing the backline amps & cabs would just mean more PA would be required resulting in just as much gear to lug around. At present our PA is used mainly for vocals with a bit of kick and a bit of guitar if needed. Our mixer gives only a single monitor mix which we keep vocals only to allow best vocal monitoring. To go the PA only route we'd need FOH capable of handling lower frequencies, more monitor cabinets and a mixer capable of producing more monitor mixes (I think it unlikely that our vocalist will want as much bass and / or guitar as the players will). Even then I think our guitarist might have trouble generating / controlling the feedback necessary for many songs.

Another problem might arise when a band member decides to move on. At present we each own our own equipment and the drummer owns the PA. If we went PA only then it would be unreasonable to expect a single band member to purchase the whole PA (because it is now bigger and more expensive) so some sort of joint purchase would be required. This would complicate band member changes considerably with buy-outs, buy-ins etc.

Another problem might be storage of equipment. Unless all bands go PA only then it is likely that an amp and cab will still be required when playing with second, third, etc. bands. But now there is all that extra PA to buy and store.

All in all I quite like keeping things simple: bass + bass amp, guitar + guitar amp, drums (loud enough on their own), vocals + PA.

[paul_5]

I've tried to ditch my backline a couple of times, but the sound engineers and/or kit hasn't been up to snuff. It's a lively thought that we could simply swan in half an hour before kick off and just plug in but the reality is that the vast majority of venues are few years away from being able to do it properly. Sadly.

[Prime_BASS]

If I could find a decent cheap wireless headphone amp, I would use some sort of cab sim DI. But that would also mean every gig I went to would have to have a decent PA to pump it through room.

I can recall all but once when I was happy with the on sthe mix and it was when I had a wacking 8x10 in my ear and my monitor purely for vocals. The racket made by others was audible enough.

[TimR]

As long as the monitors are good then I'm all for DI'ing.

I've done this at practices lots of times. Live is a bit more of a problem as the mains have to be able to cope.

Monitors, I would be happy to pay for my own and just have a FOH mix in it. Essentially a band with their own PA don't gain anything because you either need a powerful monitor and mains or a decent bass rig. However, you don't need both

[Beer of the Bass]

I think you may be missing a fundamental point about musical performances (I mean that in the context of this discussion, not in general). Although you cite practical reasons for choosing the Pod, I think you actually use it because it's a piece of kit that you click with and find creatively enabling. This is quite a personal thing, and not everybody feels that way about the same bits of gear. If playing through a particular amp setup helps me to smile, relax and enjoy the gig, why on earth should I not use it whenever its feasible to?

[Chris2112]

I'm quite happy to play with just a digital preamp and onstage monitoring. I'm quite happy even just playing with headphones on, if the in-ear mix is of sufficient quality.

[steve-soar]

When I invite friends round to the cellar to listen to old punk, dub and general madness, vinyl, tapes and sometimes CD's (Steve's Bunker Nights) I wouldn't give each friend a set of headphones and expect them to enjoy themselves as much as they would when listening to Stiff Little Fingers through a decent, very loud stereo.

[rOB]

I would love to turn up with a couple of gig bags and a backpack of bits but I regularly have to play with no bass monitoring other than my amp, I've also recently done a couple of gigs with a vocal only PA.

I don't think I could be [b]sure[/b] that I could turn up to most of the venues we play and have good enough monitoring. As a compromise I've gone for a small, light amp and cab set up.

Edited July 4, 2013 by rOB

[Dad3353]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1372950184' post='2132057']...Does your keys player rock up to gigs with a baby grand?[/quote]

What..? Baby grand..? Nah, they're for sissies..! Only full Steinway's for us, each set up for the specific 'temperament' of the opus. 14 40-ton trucks precede us as we tour around Lower Normandy. Traffic flow is our biggest logistics headache, and pulling semis from water-logged fields has led us to limit our 'circus' to the dry season. Baby grand, indeed..! Who do you take us for, eh..?

As for the 'expense' aspect of a 'good' electronic set of drums, I would use a similar argument vis-à-vis the Pod. Our bass rig cost a total of 800€. A Pod and the PA and monitors up to the same job would be probably 5 or 10 times more, I should think. It's true we need (and indeed, have...) a PA and monitors adequate for pubs and such, but they are for the voice, not the bass (HK wedges and 2x300w amp...). If we were to abandon the Hiwatt and 'Giggles', we'd need bass bins, with amp, and side-fill or wedges with their amps. Our tour bus would need changing, too, as we're at capacity presently. I think we'll stick with 'Giggles' for now; it's far more simple. As I said, though: to each his own...

[steve-soar]

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1372962827' post='2132250']
What..? Baby grand..? Nah, they're for sissies..! Only full Steinway's for us, each set up for the specific 'temperament' of the opus. 14 40-ton trucks precede us as we tour around Lower Normandy. Traffic flow is our biggest logistics headache, and pulling semis from water-logged fields has led us to limit our 'circus' to the dry season. Baby grand, indeed..! Who do you take us for, eh..?

As for the 'expense' aspect of a 'good' electronic set of drums, I would use a similar argument vis-à-vis the Pod. Our bass rig cost a total of 800€. A Pod and the PA and monitors up to the same job would be probably 5 or 10 times more, I should think. It's true we need (and indeed, have...) a PA and monitors adequate for pubs and such, but they are for the voice, not the bass (HK wedges and 2x300w amp...). If we were to abandon the Hiwatt and 'Giggles', we'd need bass bins, with amp, and side-fill or wedges with their amps. Our tour bus would need changing, too, as we're at capacity presently. I think we'll stick with 'Giggles' for now; it's far more simple. As I said, though: to each his own...
[/quote]
Well said, Mr Dad.

[Spike Vincent]

[quote name='Fat Rich' timestamp='1372958477' post='2132179']
going on stage without your trousers, not something I'd repeat in a hurry.


[/quote]

Something we should all do at least once.

Big venues with full PA and good foldback, I don't feel the need for an amp, small gigs with a vocal only PA then I want several hundred watts behind me, and our drummer insists on it being next to him.

[Lo.]

I loved my old Hartke 3500 through my SWR 1x18 (with Bag End). No tweeter.

But the Phil Jones Suitcase+4B is simply the best thing I've ever heard to reproduce your sound - your hands and instrument. Most of my youtubes are DI from a preamp but all would sound better using a mic that picks up down to 20hz on my Phil Jones 8x5 "rig".

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='peteb' timestamp='1372958586' post='2132181']
[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]he said that some sounded ok in a small room or on tape but they still haven’t made one that works with a band live on stage![/font][/color]
[/quote]

No disrespect your mate but thats clearly bollocks since you often see major acts using them in televised events where multiple bands are doing short sets (e.g. live 8).

Edited July 4, 2013 by bassman7755

[skychaserhigh]

I use my amp so I can hear my bass.