What's the real reason you want amps & cabs on stage? Rather than a POD/SansAmp etc.

[RAY AGAINST THE MACHINE]

Haven't read all of this topic yet( but I will). A few years ago, I bought an amp on ebay from a seller who said on his listing' just using virtual amps now-so this has to go'.
I am thinking of doing the same thing with my Aguilar head &cab as I don't gig anymore. I have a cheap custom 15 watt combo, which gets used occasionally.
If I lived in a house and not a flat, I would keep the amp as I would have 'the ideal bass system' for me. (Ie most guitarists seem to have a valvey marshall/ les paul/strat)

Then again, I may trade for a small combo,like markbass as it is a 'name' and I would feel naked without a box of somesort

[Stan_da_man]

Because not every venue has decent monitors and not all of us can afford IEM.

Edited July 6, 2013 by Stan_da_man

[4000]

[quote name='Stan_da_man' timestamp='1373112965' post='2133828']
Because not every venue has decent monitors and not all of us can afford IEM.
[/quote]

I dream of being this concise.

[Lozz196]

For me, I have an amp/cab as many of the gigs I do only have a vocal pa. Where there is FOH/monitors, I`m quite happy to just go through my Zoom B3 and most venues are also happy for this.

[Guest FretNoMore]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1372944486' post='2131932']
...
I'm genuinely interested to know.
[/quote]

I don't think you are. You have already made your mind up that there are no good reasons.

But anyway, in my case our PA doesn't have good enough monitors for bass. Sometimes when playing smaller places we don't even bring the monitors, or PA subs, and only have the vocals and keys in the PA, so I need some oomph from my bass amp.

Edited July 11, 2013 by FretNoMore

[xilddx]

[quote name='FretNoMore' timestamp='1373529774' post='2138548']


I don't think you are. You have already made your mind up that there are no good reasons.

But anyway, in my case our PA doesn't have good enough monitors for bass. Sometimes when playing smaller places we don't even bring the monitors, or PA subs, and only have the vocals and keys in the PA, so I need some oomph from my bass amp.
[/quote]
Well no, there are clearly some very good reasons which I had not considered. Yours being one of them. I now feel privileged to be gigging in London where most pub and club venues supply backline and basic drum set, full PA and reasonable monitoring and I now know this is not the case in many parts if the country. This is very useful information to have, so thanks to all of you.

[Wil]

You get a drumkit too

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1373536909' post='2138673']
I now feel privileged to be gigging in London where most pub and club venues supply backline and basic drum set, full PA and reasonable monitoring and I now know this is not the case in [s]many[/s] most other parts if the country.[/quote]

Fixed it for you.

I didn't know the scene was like that in London. Interesting to know.

[thodrik]

Consistency of sound. You get good and bad monitors at venues. Sometimes there are not enough monitors to go around. With a loud drummer and/or guitarist, I don't want to leave anything to chance, especially I am playing in an unfamiliar venue.

Ease of use and convenience. Some sound engineers have kicked up a fuss over the DI route. 'I don't want to screw up my monitors by pumping out loads of bass' has been something I've heard a bit over the years when I have tried to use a Sansamp. Although I own a POD and it is a fantastic piece of kit, I prefer just pressing the 'on' button to an amp to get a sound.

Tradition/looks/personal preference etc. Personally I like to see and hear an amp onstage. I know that it is possible to get a better 'clear' sound with no bleeding through with a DI and the ability to get an all valve sound through a Kemper profiling amp that can fit into a rucksack. However that is not really something that I am that interested in. I like an element of imperfection of microphones put next to a speaker cab.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Wil' timestamp='1373537390' post='2138678']
You get a drumkit too
[/quote]

Yep. Almost every pub/club small multi-band venue (100-200 punters) gig we play in London there is a house kit, usually a slightly battered Pearl Export or something like that, the sort of kit you get in rehearsal rooms. Drummers only need breakables usually. We often find a couple of guitar combos and a bass combo supplied too. Almost never a keys stand though for some reason. The PAs are usually pretty decent and full range, and there're at least two wedge monitors, some are flyers, some floor, usually a drum sidefill too. Stages are often small but you can fit an eight piece band on most of them.

Desks are often old school, but there are usually a good number of channels, a couple we've played have digital desks. Usually have a built in stage DI panel, plenty of Behringer DI boxes, long enough XLR cables, etc. House sound engineers can be hit and miss but they're usually perfectly cool people who know what they're doing.

Bands get a free drink in a few venues but not usually. We don't often get paid in Kit's band, but small-time promoters put nights on most days of the week with four to six bands (first couple are usually solo or acoustic), and bands play to build their audience, very little pay to play going on here, but being paid to play is rare. This is really for indie/pop/rock/folk/acoustic/etc venues with youngish bands. Jazz and world music specialist venues are a little different from what I've seen.

Are we really f***ing lucky down here then? Certainly appears so.

[Guest FretNoMore]

If you're happy with the supplied gear, then yes you're lucky, why carry a lot of heavy stuff if you don't have to?

Most (small) places we play have no equipment to speak of though, the few that do tend to have amps and drums that are seriously not nice. I'm happier to haul my own bass gear, and PA too in some cases, so I know it will work and sound OK. For me, using my own quality equipment is part of the fun, I don't want to spoil the experience by poor sound or malfunctioning house gear. I'm sure that gets old if you play a huge amount of shows, but until we do I'll take our own predictable and reliable gear over what the house might supply.

Edited July 11, 2013 by FretNoMore

[Norris]

I use a GT6-B into my Peavey Databass combo; the pedal provides the tone, the combo amp provides the power (in a very compact size!). Being a pub covers band we don't have a massive PA, and rarely use any monitors.

I often get comments about the "great sounding amp for such a little one" - I've given up trying to explain. Yes, the amp does sound good on it's own, but with the pedal I can switch between valve emulation (SVT) and a nice clean funky tone (basically the amp's 'native' sound), and I have every effect I'd ever need just a patch copy/tweak away.

[51m0n]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1373540088' post='2138743']
Yep. Almost every pub/club small multi-band venue (100-200 punters) gig we play in London there is a house kit, usually a slightly battered Pearl Export or something like that, the sort of kit you get in rehearsal rooms. Drummers only need breakables ....

...
Are we really f***ing lucky down here then? Certainly appears so.
[/quote]
You spoilt gits!

[JTUK]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1373540088' post='2138743']
Yep. Almost every pub/club small multi-band venue (100-200 punters) gig we play in London there is a house kit, usually a slightly battered Pearl Export or something like that, the sort of kit you get in rehearsal rooms. Drummers only need breakables usually. We often find a couple of guitar combos and a bass combo supplied too. Almost never a keys stand though for some reason. The PAs are usually pretty decent and full range, and there're at least two wedge monitors, some are flyers, some floor, usually a drum sidefill too. Stages are often small but you can fit an eight piece band on most of them.

Desks are often old school, but there are usually a good number of channels, a couple we've played have digital desks. Usually have a built in stage DI panel, plenty of Behringer DI boxes, long enough XLR cables, etc. House sound engineers can be hit and miss but they're usually perfectly cool people who know what they're doing.

[/quote]

See...I'd have a HUGE problem with this spec.
I understand that people know the place and the kit but I can think of many drummers who want what they want..
and the array and config of how they are going to use it.
Crappy beaten up heads and hi hat stands...not to mention pedals are very specific to the player.
Add in the bass player and then the sound from the monitors, the gtr in foldback..and whether to run Radio mics..etc etc ..

Latest gig we did ..was actually a charity multi bill and we knew straight away that the decision to do it was wrong.
Good cause and all that but what was in it for us. As far as I am concerned it was a favour paid but no drums through the monitors and
you had a poor presentation of the sound on stage. We never got the lead vox right in the mons in our allottted time and
so you come away thinking why do these things..

The P.A spec was decent and the engrs decent enough but you just don't have to the time to fix these things.
We took along our backline and a 15 min turnaround is just not reasonable if that means the other gear has to come off as well.
Gear share is one thing...but sharing what..?? do you trade the speed of turnaround for the downgrade in gear used..??

There comes a point when it is just not worth it all.......... IMO.

Edited July 11, 2013 by JTUK

[BottomE]

good old juicy thread this one.

We have to supply a PA for most of our gigs. The one that we have won't handle bass and the monitors are too weak so thats why i use an amp. I like to be able to control what i hear on stage and know that i can reliably dial a tone that i am comfortable with on my own gear.

If we are playing with a big PA i still bring my rig as a sort of comfort blanket. Even on some impressive PAs i've played through the bass sounds a bit "wrong" out of the monitors. Perhaps it is something you can get used to?

I do like the sound from my rig too and it would be a compromise to downgrade it.

[steve-bbb]

im guessing the preference for a specific back line rig is driven by the desire for the tone of a particular amp/speaker rather than the bass itself?

i use a hartke rig which i like because it is clean and powerful and provides a warm tone without adding colour from the amp itself - i really regard all my tone and colour coming from the bass so for me personally unless the PA is atrocious i can be pretty confident that what is DI'd coming out the FOH is a fairly good facsimlie of the sound coming from my cab

[Bassman Sam]

When I was gigging, we would hire a PA and sound man as required. Some gigs in London would have an in house PA and monitors but we always would use our own back line and drums. I have gigged with just a DI through the PA and monitors but these were rare occasions.. If I could have gigged without my rig, I would have been a happy bunny. It was no fun lugging a Marshall Superbass MK II head, + a 4x10 and 2x15 cabs and 2 basses + a holdall with mike stands and leads to every gig in the back of my car. You luck bastard Nige.

[51m0n]

Rig envy?

[Low End Bee]

Just seen this thread. I went Sansamp into the PA on an outdoor gig on Sunday. It was OK for the first song. Then the guitarist asked for a bit more vocal in his monitor and my bass got totally lost in the on stage mix. I played the rest of the set on instinct. I asked for some more bass in my wedge but it didn't work.
Every gig I've played in the last 2 years has been DI. A lot of the places the amp is just ticking over as an additional stage monitor but I've often had my drummer say he can't hear me and look to see an empty space at the mixing desk where a sound man used to be. So in those cases it's nice to have control of my on stage volume. I normally just take a little TC head and RS210 though. I can't see the point of anything bigger on a DI gig.

[BigRedX]

IME any foldback speaker system without side fills and multiple foldback mixes simply doesn't have enough range or separation to be able to cope with a decent bass guitar (or synth) sound for anything other than the most quiet and delicate of bands. Effectively that means most venues under 500 capacity. I've done a handful of gigs with the Terrortones where I've had to DI straight from my Pod into the PA and it's been a less than pleasant experience each time. Most wedge monitors are designed specifically for vocals, and trying to cram extra frequencies through them makes the less effective for everything.

[Guest FretNoMore]

Monitoring is the key really. I've only played once with really superior sound; a couple of years ago we were only an interlude in a large company event with massive sound stage, video recording etc. The monitor setup would blow our PA out of the water, a separate sound guy for monitor mix and more channels and sends I've seen in most FOH mixers. Expensive monitor speakers in front and to the sides. On stage I thought I was listening to a studio recording of ourselves, everything in balance, could hear all instruments. Amazing, we looked at each other and just sort of giggled. Next show - back to our own crappy setup, feedback, poor sounding wedges, can't hear myself, etc.

[Conan]

[quote name='FretNoMore' timestamp='1373623376' post='2139718']
Next show - back to our own crappy setup, feedback, poor sounding wedges, can't hear myself, etc.
[/quote]

Sadly though, for most of us, this is the norm!

[shizznit]

Most stage monitors that I have used in recent years might have had enough juice to pump through my bass feed, but I never been 100% satisfied with the sound. Foldback monitors don't have the response that I want once all the band are coming through. Once the kick drum is fed to me it zaps all of the high mids out of my bass tone and ends up being quite muddy and compressed. I use my monitor mix to hear the rest of the band and not myself. I usually stand close to my backline anyway and I much prefer the separation and far more control of my personal monitoring. You don't know what you are going to get at each venue and each house system. With a backline you know what you are going to get every time. Unless you are fortunate to tour with your own PA and have a good understanding on how well your onstage monitoring performs and have spent time refining the sound you are receiving a backline amp will always be needed to ensure you are happy with your tone. If you sound crap and have no control over any improvement then you don't play with confidence.

Digital amp modelling is improving all the time and I regularly work with a guitar player that has a Kemper system. He DI's into the PA, uses two of his own foldback monitors hooked up to a power amp and never uses a guitar amp or cab on stage. There are even foldback monitors on the market specially designed for amp modelling. It sounds great and not having a guitar player screaming away above everyone else on stage is a welcome relief. At rehearsals he just turns them 180 behind him and there is more than enough volume to hear him. A very flexible and compact setup. Also, this method also resolves a lot of stage acoustics problems. You always get a consistent sound of your instrument. The only draw back for me is if you like to wander around a big stage. As soon as you step away from your monitors you can't hear yourself. A conventional backline will still give you some reference across the stage.

Bass amp modelling still has a long way to go. I have owned both Line 6 POD's and SansAmp DI drivers and they sound okay in the studio, but I have never been happy with them on stage simply because the majority of foldback monitors don't perform as well as a bass cab would. I'm sure that someone one day will design a bass system for live use that will work as well as a Fractal or Kemper system and that can be used through specially designed foldback monitors that can replicate not just the amp but the speaker too.

But, bass players are simple folks. I have no interest having 100's of amp models, speaker sims and effects at my disposal. I like the sound of my bass amp and switching my tone multiple times during a performance seems pointless to me. I also think that FOH engineers would get narked if I did that because controlling low end frequencies in a venue is bloody difficult, so changing between tones would cause more harm than good. Maybe the sensible solution is a foldback amp combo much like Hartke, David Eden, GK and Laney have tinkered with in the past. Recent D class amp and lightweight speaker technology has opened up a lot of possibilities for such setups that will provide the power and performance we all crave. But, is there really a high demand for this type of bass amp/personal monitoring combination for bass players? The market for this will be aimed the medium-large venue musician whereby the whole band needs to be monitored. The musician that plays in front of one man and his dog without full PA support will always need a conventional backline setup and will be satisfied with it. I can't see many manufacturers investing much time and money into this as in ear monitors seem to be the way forward and that technology is becoming more efficient and cheaper as time goes by.

Edited July 12, 2013 by shizznit