Myke Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Hello, I was unsure whether to put this here or in Repairs/Technical but I chose here! Anyway.. I'm looking to build a acoustic bridge and have noticed that there are two different choices of bridge. There are ones with the saddle at and angle (For the intonation I assume) and some with a straight saddle. (It is a saddle right?) Anyway here are some examples. My question is does it matter if it is straight or at an angle? and if so.. How to do you work out the angle? Any advice would be brilliant! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry norton Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 It's more important on a bass than on a guitar as the difference in string intonation length is much wider. If you use a straight bridge your intonation will be quite noticeably out once you get much past the 8th fret on the lower strings. The easiest way to work out a decent angle would be to take a look at an electric which has the same scale length, the same strings and the same action as you're going to use on your acoustic, then measure the angle between the lowest and highest strings at the bridge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myke Posted July 5, 2013 Author Share Posted July 5, 2013 I'm building it for a bass with a 21inch scale length, if this changes anything? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 Hi Yes - you need an angle one way or another (an angled bridge or angle the bridge) or you really won't be in tune on the upper notes. Also, the bridge is set a few mm back from the scale length (yes, I know - it's weird). On the Stewmac website there's a calculator which you put in the scale length, etc, and it will tell you EXACTLY how many mm from the nut the bridge needs to be each side of the fretboard, including therefore the extra mm on the bass side to get the required angle. Hope this helps Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myke Posted July 5, 2013 Author Share Posted July 5, 2013 [quote name='Andyjr1515' timestamp='1373051236' post='2133308'] Hi Yes - you need an angle one way or another (an angled bridge or angle the bridge) or you really won't be in tune on the upper notes. Also, the bridge is set a few mm back from the scale length (yes, I know - it's weird). On the Stewmac website there's a calculator which you put in the scale length, etc, and it will tell you EXACTLY how many mm from the nut the bridge needs to be each side of the fretboard, including therefore the extra mm on the bass side to get the required angle. Hope this helps Andy [/quote] That's amazing thank you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 [quote name='Myke' timestamp='1373051334' post='2133309'] That's amazing thank you! [/quote] No probs. I've just had a peep at the calculator - for bass it just gives one measurement for the bridge because it assumes the saddles are adjustable. Have a peep at the acoustic (6 string) option - it gives the top E position and the bottom E position and you can see the difference, hence the angle - this will be much the same for a bass and the calculator will work for any scale length Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBollock Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 It might just be the light, but that second (straight) bridge looks compensated. Like the second one here: I have one similar to the third one on my Spanish style acoustic guitar. It might be worth considering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 (edited) [quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1373056102' post='2133369'] It might just be the light, but that second (straight) bridge looks compensated. Like the second one here: I have one similar to the third one on my Spanish style acoustic guitar. It might be worth considering. [/quote] Actually, if you look closely, the top picture in the original post is also compensated (2nd string filed so the string is at the back of the saddle, etc) The trouble is, the saddle only gives you 1-1.5mm difference, and you need at least 3mm basic difference (just look at the saddle positions on a well-intonated standard bass or 6 string and put a rule along the mean) and then each string is a little bit forward or back from that - so generally the better acoustics have an angled saddle AND a compensated bridge. I know it defies logic, but when did our guitars do anything different Edited July 5, 2013 by Andyjr1515 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBollock Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 [quote name='Andyjr1515' timestamp='1373057683' post='2133395'] Actually, if you look closely, the top picture in the original post is also compensated (2nd string filed so the string is at the back of the saddle, etc) The trouble is, the saddle only gives you 1-1.5mm difference, and you need at least 3mm basic difference (just look at the saddle positions on a well-intonated standard bass or 6 string and put a rule along the mean) and then each string is a little bit forward or back from that - so generally the better acoustics have an angled saddle AND a compensated bridge. I know it defies logic, but when did our guitars do anything different [/quote] Yeah, I spotted that after I pressed post. I know all too well about intonating a bass right now. I have been making new saddles for my bridge and I have spent a lot of time messing about getting it just right. The stupid bridge is designed in such a way that once you've got the intonation right you have to remove the string to get at the grub screw that clamps the saddle in place. Making the saddles is a damned fiddly job, too. They're 12mm x 6mm x 4mm yet each one is taking over an hour to make! Tapping M3 holes is a pain in the bum and I've already broken one tap, another and I'll have to buy a new set. And the saddles are so small that I can't wear my gloves when making them, so until I've nearly done and can file and sand the sharp little edges off them they're bloomin' painful to work with. Fortunately I am a pick player because otherwise I wouldn't be able to play with my right hand right now because the tips are shredded. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myke Posted July 5, 2013 Author Share Posted July 5, 2013 So compensating it is just filing it down to get the innotation bang on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 [quote name='Myke' timestamp='1373058911' post='2133414'] So compensating it is just filing it down to get the innotation bang on? [/quote] Yes - exactly. On a standard electric or bass bridge, you can move the saddles forwards or backwards until it's just right. On a fixed bridge, it has to be pretty much in the right place to start with and then the only extra is filing so the 'peak' of the saddle is further forward or backwards for that particular string. With a bass, the basic position and then the angle (top G string shorter, bottom E string longer) is very important if you are using a fixed bridge but the extra tweaking around the width of the bone saddle would be pretty much imperceptible to our ears Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 [quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1373058269' post='2133407'] Yeah, I spotted that after I pressed post. I know all too well about intonating a bass right now. I have been making new saddles for my bridge and I have spent a lot of time messing about getting it just right. The stupid bridge is designed in such a way that once you've got the intonation right you have to remove the string to get at the grub screw that clamps the saddle in place. Making the saddles is a damned fiddly job, too. They're 12mm x 6mm x 4mm yet each one is taking over an hour to make! Tapping M3 holes is a pain in the bum and I've already broken one tap, another and I'll have to buy a new set. And the saddles are so small that I can't wear my gloves when making them, so until I've nearly done and can file and sand the sharp little edges off them they're bloomin' painful to work with. Fortunately I am a pick player because otherwise I wouldn't be able to play with my right hand right now because the tips are shredded. [/quote] I think you are very brave making your own saddles in the first place! Hope your fingers recover soon... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBollock Posted July 5, 2013 Share Posted July 5, 2013 [quote name='Andyjr1515' timestamp='1373059801' post='2133428'] I think you are very brave making your own saddles in the first place! Hope your fingers recover soon... [/quote] Actually it was cowardice that caused me to do it. The easiest thing would have been to just grind down the existing saddles, but as I have been unable to find the individual parts for sale I was afraid that if I cocked it up I'd have to buy a whole new bridge just to get those parts. This way it has only cost me £2 for the metal and a whole bunch of free time and pain. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry norton Posted July 7, 2013 Share Posted July 7, 2013 [quote name='Myke' timestamp='1373043039' post='2133184'] I'm building it for a bass with a 21inch scale length, if this changes anything? [/quote] You'll still need some kind of compensation as even a 21 inch scale will find the strings stretching a fair bit when they're fretted. Is this for a ukelele - 21" scale with metal strings would mean they'd have to be thick as tree trunks!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myke Posted July 7, 2013 Author Share Posted July 7, 2013 [quote name='henry norton' timestamp='1373224049' post='2135037'] You'll still need some kind of compensation as even a 21 inch scale will find the strings stretching a fair bit when they're fretted. Is this for a ukelele - 21" scale with metal strings would mean they'd have to be thick as tree trunks!!! [/quote] I was planning to use the strings that the Kala U-Bass uses, as that's what I'm basing my idea around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry norton Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 [quote name='Myke' timestamp='1373226329' post='2135086'] I was planning to use the strings that the Kala U-Bass uses, as that's what I'm basing my idea around [/quote] Well the U Bass has a compensated bridge so maybe you could copy that. Just look at a picture on the internet, measure it and scale it up to fit whatever you're building.... ....What are you building???? I'm super-intrigued Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myke Posted July 8, 2013 Author Share Posted July 8, 2013 [quote name='henry norton' timestamp='1373311416' post='2136051'] Well the U Bass has a compensated bridge so maybe you could copy that. Just look at a picture on the internet, measure it and scale it up to fit whatever you're building.... ....What are you building???? I'm super-intrigued [/quote] I probably will to be honest. Well it's not that interesting. I have a ukulele at home which I am always using the two high strings (E and A) to jam on. So since I can't afford a Kala U-Bass I decided to build one. At the moment I'm trying to find a bit of thin plywood to build a prototype on and I'm not sure what woods to use yet. So essentially a U-Bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 (edited) [quote name='Myke' timestamp='1373312093' post='2136068'] I probably will to be honest. Well it's not that interesting. I have a ukulele at home which I am always using the two high strings (E and A) to jam on. So since I can't afford a Kala U-Bass I decided to build one. At the moment I'm trying to find a bit of thin plywood to build a prototype on and I'm not sure what woods to use yet. So essentially a U-Bass. [/quote] Sounds pretty interesting to me, Myke! I think any acoustic, uke or otherwise, requires such a steep learning curve and the results can be hugely impressive and satisfying Andy Edited July 8, 2013 by Andyjr1515 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myke Posted July 8, 2013 Author Share Posted July 8, 2013 [quote name='Andyjr1515' timestamp='1373314488' post='2136111'] Sounds pretty interesting to me, Myke! I think any acoustic, uke or otherwise, requires such a steep learning curve and the results can be hugely impressive and satisfying Andy [/quote] Well I'm glad you think so! Unfortunately it seems to be a slow starter as I can't find any plywood thin enough and I don't have a planing machine (not sure you can plane plywood, as it's made of layers) the thinnest available near me is 3.6mm. I may be able to get 1.5mm, if they can order it in, but that may still be too thick? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingBollock Posted July 8, 2013 Share Posted July 8, 2013 [quote name='Myke' timestamp='1373315426' post='2136135'] Well I'm glad you think so! Unfortunately it seems to be a slow starter as I can't find any plywood thin enough and I don't have a planing machine (not sure you can plane plywood, as it's made of layers) the thinnest available near me is 3.6mm. I may be able to get 1.5mm, if they can order it in, but that may still be too thick? [/quote] How about getting some veneer and some glue and making your own? I have never tried this so I have no idea how viable an option it actually is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myke Posted July 8, 2013 Author Share Posted July 8, 2013 [quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1373317355' post='2136168'] How about getting some veneer and some glue and making your own? I have never tried this so I have no idea how viable an option it actually is. [/quote] That wouldn't be a bad idea but I'd be more worried about the glue melting when I bend it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) [quote name='Myke' timestamp='1373315426' post='2136135'] Well I'm glad you think so! Unfortunately it seems to be a slow starter as I can't find any plywood thin enough and I don't have a planing machine (not sure you can plane plywood, as it's made of layers) the thinnest available near me is 3.6mm. I may be able to get 1.5mm, if they can order it in, but that may still be too thick? [/quote] Hi, Myke Never made a bass uke but I doubt that you want to be thinner than 1.5mm... Most Ukes seem to be between 1.6mm and 2.5mm so I am sure a bass would be no thinner (and probably the upper end of that range). An acoustic guitar comes out at around 2.4mm and (I gather from the attached link) that a bass uke is similar or same scale length as a 3/4 size classical. I'm sure you can get some 2mm ply from the internet but why not go for the real thing - mahogany? It usually comes thicker so you have to plane / sand / scrape it down, or the attached idea is no bad approach - start with a second hand 3/4 classical: [url="http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Bass-Uke/"]http://www.instructa...d/DIY-Bass-Uke/[/url] 3/4 classical guitars are usually bought for younger musicians who either abandon or grow out of them - very cheap good ones can often be seen on ebay or gumtree. The advantage is that the wood will already be the correct thickness, there or thereabouts Andy Edited July 9, 2013 by Andyjr1515 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myke Posted July 9, 2013 Author Share Posted July 9, 2013 [quote name='Andyjr1515' timestamp='1373390304' post='2137050'] Hi, Myke Never made a bass uke but I doubt that you want to be thinner than 1.5mm... Most Ukes seem to be between 1.6mm and 2.5mm so I am sure a bass would be no thinner (and probably the upper end of that range). An acoustic guitar comes out at around 2.4mm and (I gather from the attached link) that a bass uke is similar or same scale length as a 3/4 size classical. I'm sure you can get some 2mm ply from the internet but why not go for the real thing - mahogany? It usually comes thicker so you have to plane / sand / scrape it down, or the attached idea is no bad approach - start with a second hand 3/4 classical: [url="http://www.instructables.com/id/DIY-Bass-Uke/"]http://www.instructa...d/DIY-Bass-Uke/[/url] 3/4 classical guitars are usually bought for younger musicians who either abandon or grow out of them - very cheap good ones can often be seen on ebay or gumtree. The advantage is that the wood will already be the correct thickness, there or thereabouts Andy [/quote] It's because I want to practice making it first. Practicing the bending and gluing and stuff before I use 'proper' wood. And I also don't know what type of wood to go for yet either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
henry norton Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 (edited) HaHa! Now we're getting somewhere! You'll probably find it's easier to make a uke, guitar or any acoustic out of solid wood rather than ply. If you just want to practice on ply first the thickness won't really matter so any old sh#t will do. Once you feel a bit more confident you can get some cheapish guitar wood from [url="http://www.touchstonetonewoods.co.uk/products/guitar-mandolin-lute-wood-23/"]here[/url] Don't forget to keep asking questions on the forum too... Edited July 9, 2013 by henry norton Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andyjr1515 Posted July 9, 2013 Share Posted July 9, 2013 I tend to agree with Henry on this one, Myke. You might end up buying another couple of extra sides, but solid wood behaves so differently to ply, I think you are best starting as you mean to continue...that is, with real wood. I think you've seen this but the attached [url="http://www.ajrguitarmods.co.uk/swift%20iv%20acoustic.htm"]http://www.ajrguitarmods.co.uk/swift%20iv%20acoustic.htm[/url] was my very first attempt at an acoustic anything and it worked out just fine. It just needs some careful thought before each action, lots of looking at YouTube clips and not being afraid to ask the clever folks here for guidance This is a great forum for the latter Andy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.