Historically Informed Performance/Practice

[fatgoogle]

I asked this question over on talkbass as i presumed the larger double bass section might get some answers but not a huge amount of interest. So ill bring the question to you guys.

Here's the link:
[url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f5/historically-informed-performance-997698/"]http://www.talkbass....ormance-997698/[/url]

Pretty much historically informed Performance/Practice and how to apply it to the relative composers/era's or even area's of the world. Whether it be video's, links, Books I'd appreciate any input.

Cheers
Sam

[MandShef]

I'm afraid I haven't got any book suggestions, but I'll be following this topic with interest. The closest I've come to 'historically informed practice' methods is when we were asked to hold our bows in a baroque style for an orchestral performance (see pic):

[url="http://u.jimdo.com/www29/o/sb34864868412b1e7/img/iee28e2914eafca45/1279205991/std/image.jpg"]http://u.jimdo.com/www29/o/sb34864868412b1e7/img/iee28e2914eafca45/1279205991/std/image.jpg[/url]

The only other thing I'm aware of is that you wouldn't use vibrato for e.g. Bach like you would for a more Romantic piece.

Look forward to seeing your replies ....

[fatgoogle]

Thanks, Ive done that before. Took a while to get used to. Im thinking of buying a cheap baroque bow just to experiment with.

[ubassman]

You are getting into Musicolgy here - not so sure that you will easily find much on 'historically informed practice' other than to get reading or enrol on a musicology course !. For me it makes music come alive knowing why it was composed that way in the first place and the rules that created the genre ! Whats quite fun is to recognise that academics will try to explain in the future how to go about authentically playing rock and roll , hip hop or other 'voice of the people' music in years to come ! Modern day music has just as many rules and specifics to create that sound as all music that has preceded it!

[ubassman]

I found it fascinating when I studied classical guitar to find out about the 'Music of the Spheres ' . When I first listened to very early renaissance guitar music it was pretty dull to listen to, until I got the backstory of what it was about ( bit like sending out a morse code message up to the heavens in the hope of a reply )! The idea was that the earth moon sun and planets all revolved with a divine hum that was so pure and harmonious that mere humans couldn't hear it. It was gods music - it was a cut a dried part of Renaissance music that was derived from Pythagoras and adapted by Plato . The concept of 'divine proportion' was embraced with emphasis on the specific intervals which had key relevance 1, 2 , 3, 4, 5, 8 ( the 5 planets - from what I remember 1 or the root represented God, 2nd gods representative ( the clergy ) , 3rd + 4th mankind, 5th the earth and 8 obviously being the redefinition of 1 ) . These divine proportions produced a very specific definition of musical beauty - a sound based on intervalic composition ( sounds very much like playing in Modes ).

The amazing thing was that this was not only in Church music but also found its way into proportions in architecture which you guessed it, was constructed in cruciform 5 bays long by 3 wide, ( combination = 8 = God house ! ) with the most sacred part at 1 ( the altar + the side Sister Chapel to the left of the 3 bay) and the priest in the middle at the 2nd square i e. overlapping bay of the cross), the people in 3rd and 4th bay and the 5th bay being the interface with the outside world. All clever stuff !

Just a long winded way to illustrate that knowing the background changed for me what I originally found really dull into pure enjoyment of trying to emulate the musical concept of immaculate beauty playing perfect intervals!

...I guess we should all try to get into the vibe of the period and follow the 'rules' - I for one am guilty of just getting on with playing and not chasing the backstory ...perhaps an idea for another thread or two !

Edited July 10, 2013 by ubassman

[fatgoogle]

Cheers. Very interesting. Any reading you'd recommend? We've got some Fibonacci going on there. Ive already looked into 1,2,3,5,8 etc etc influenced music but would love to learn a bit more. I did a bit on art history which included Architecture and there was a great deal in there about [color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif][size=4]Pythagoras and Fibonacci. Great stuff. [/size][/font][/color]

What i think i really want to know is how to turn a standard performance into something that can really do it justice. I don't think this can be done just through practice.

Ive also been listening to the New Dutch academy which is very enlightening and some performances of the Brandenburg concerto's. Every Group performs them differently, certain notes left out or brought it. Things moved about octaves and dynamics are just way off between performances. It's difficult to get a foot hold on were to start or rather what to accept first and then i can change it but ive got to begin somewhere.

Also found this.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWYgWve6Uy4"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wWYgWve6Uy4[/url]


Im presuming gut strings and Viennesse tuning. Sounds amazingly sweet though.

EDIT: bit after 1.30 check out the size of that bow. Presuming its closer to an underhand grip being held over instead.

Edited July 14, 2013 by fatgoogle

[fatgoogle]

Found this as well while doing some more research. Bass's either side of the stage.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jjSqhuY4DU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jjSqhuY4DU[/url]

Im wondering how periodically correct this is??

[ubassman]

...interesting question !! Our conductor occasionally ask me to move to the French horn side away from the Euphonia and trombone section to give a more balanced sound depending on the venue - maybe something to do with being in a circular building ( i.e. Royal Albert Hall ) ?

Just google 'how to play baroque music' and there are plenty of academic ideas as how Bach should be played - some good essays cited here [url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_concertos"]https://en.wikipedia...nburg_concertos[/url] .

Edited July 11, 2013 by ubassman

[ubassman]

...by the way Sam, didn't see the link to the New Dutch academy ??

[oggiesnr]

Historically informed performance is an interesting can of worms. Very few of us play the instruments of earlier ages and very few of us have the same bows. We sound different and with modern techniques and instruments can do a lot more than an 18th century bassist playing guts can. Time has moved on and whilst the notes may be the same we can do so much more and bring different tones and attitudes to the music. Whilst there is room for re-enactment I'm not sure that it is an end to strive for, IMHO it's a dead end.

I am old enough to have listened to David Munrow and "Pied Piper". It was exciting and vibrant but his take on Early Music was not actually historically correct, it was too fast and had too much range between soft and loud (we think) but it was great musically and kindled a love of music in many people. I have listened to many "correct" interpretations of the music and I'll take DM's anyday.

Likewise I saw du Pre playing the Elgar cello, I also have it on disc, and I hate it but that has become the standard against which cellists are measured. I also heard Rostropovich play it, very different, even more so as he grew older and I think preferable. However, two hundred years down the road I suspect the the du Pre will become the Historically Informed version.

Steve

[ubassman]

[quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1373665654' post='2140498']

I have listened to many "correct" interpretations of the music and I'll take DM's anyday.

[/quote]

I guess if a listener is an early music fanatic/ academic / purist musician then breaking the rules will sound outrageous , but to the non early music aficionado , the music may sound more accessible and relevant . I figure that one could argue the same about modernising Shakespeare, or any Opera - some would say disaster don't even go there, others would love the modern take ( ...West Side Story for example ?).