Wanted Underwood or similar for high volume gigs £100

[bassadder]

Hi Guys

Turns out this one particular gig I'm doing is very loud in fact I can't hear a thing on stage from my bass, so I won't to experiment with an Underwood or something similar in to my Avalon U5 and Aguilar Rig can anyone help. Essentially once the drums and guitar kick in I can't even hear the keyboard player's amp and my intonation goes to **it, I just heard a recording back and it's totally embarrassing I sound terrible. I could easily do it on electric bass problem solved but the band really want the look of the double bass so it's down to me to solve my own monitoring issues.

Can anyone helpor offer advice

Cheers

Laurence

[bassace]

Laurence

Sorry can't help right now, all my Underwoods are on basses. But rest assured when you find one it'll do the business. Perhaps a phase reverser might be needed together with a bit of treble reduction but I think it is the most under-rated pickup. You can always eq some of the brightness off if you want to but you can't brighten up a muddy pickup.

Gypsyjazzer has one for sale in this section, fair price.

Edited July 10, 2013 by bassace

[TheRev]

For loud stages (i.e. full foldback/monitoring) I put my bass cab up on a keyboard X stand so that it's to one side of me at shoulder/head height and use it purely for personal monitoring. A DI from my preamp goes straight to the desk/FOH/monitor mix - no-one else needs to hear my rig in itself, so I stick in wherever I can hear it best.

[Mr Bassman]

Sack the drummer & guitarist

[bassace]

I can live with most drummers and don't have problems. It's keyboard players with heavy left hands playing [i]my [/i]notes!

[TheRev]

If the band want the 'look of a double bass' then they're going to have to turn down to accomodate it. If they want the 'look of a double bass' but don't want to turn down, then they're clearly not concerned about the sound of a double bass, in which case, you're just there to mime and look the part. If they want to hear some actual bass, but still won't turn down, then they're in luck! Mr Fender invented the electric bass for just this situation.....

[Mr Bassman]

Or you could buy my SLB100 and drown the other buggers out
[attachment=138820:Mrs bass Version 02.jpg]

Seriously, put an underwood on this and you'll cut through any band with no feedback

Edited July 10, 2013 by Mr Bassman

[TPJ]

I have an Underwood sitting dormant (that's what they do, hibernate then come out every now again ) I'll find it and dig it out. I've never used it but got it from Beedster so I'm sure it works ok. I can send it to you to try out and see if it works for your situation. I also have a Hurley double paddle one that doesn't sound too bad either. PM me your contact details and address.

Edited July 10, 2013 by TPJ

[Clarky]

The alternative feedback free solution is to order a mag pickup from Kent Armstrong or import one from Krivo in US. Obviously only if you have steel strings! Then you get the DB look, as much volume as you will ever need and a sound which bears a decent approximation to a DB (at the volumes you are talking I doubt the audience would ever know it wasn't a piezo)

[bassadder]

Thanks for all the advice, I do have in-ears but I find way to wierd to try and pitch with things in my ears doesn't feel right at all, TPJ thanks for the offer you have a PM, Bassace that's great news I remember using one at one time and thinking it was good plus Mr Holland and Mats Eilersten use them.

Clarky I have Velvet Animas on my bass so Magnetics are out, but I have a question for bith you and Roger what's the Big E 4X5 like?

Many thanks again

Laurence

[Clarky]

[quote name='bassadder' timestamp='1373543087' post='2138814']
what's the Big E 4X5 like?
[/quote]
TheRev (aka Dave) has a BigE 4x5 and described it, IIRC, as "all-conquering". I'll leave Roger to answer (as he owns my old BigE) as he has gigged it a fair bit now, I believe. My impression was that it is very "true" and creates a wide "sound field" with the vortex placement of the speakers (so the bass can be heard all over the stage as well as by the audience). I only sold as I think the benefits tend to get lost with very loud gigs, which are essentially what I play, so I've gone to a simple combo solution (Ten2 for small/mid sized gigs and Markbass CMD112P for loud ones). For a band with space for the DB to be heard (eg, a jazz trio, say) they are amazing cabs

[bassace]

Clarky's put it very well. So many cabs sound great up close then you lose a lot as soon as you walk away from them. This one almost improves as you get away from it. It also has good attack on the front of the note (being 4x5") and maintains good volume right up the G string. I've only gigged mine twice, once in a pub where I've been resident for 14 years (as a musician I hasten to add) and which has crap acoustics. It did OK-ish in spite of the room sound although I was told I was a bit loud. The second gig was an upstairs room at Upton Jazz Festival where, in view of my probs on the previous gig, I took an extra 10" Wizzy for close monitoring and the pianist said it sounded great. I think it would play best if you had the space to stand away from the cab a bit. And tilting helps.

But hold your horses a bit. I've just got hold of a new PJB C4, which is a small 4x5". Haven't gigged it yet but at home it sounds amazing with plenty of attack and as much bottom end as you'll need. It'll be while before it's gigged; Next Wed week at the crap acoustics pub with JM Stringle but the results could be very interesting.

I'm at Swanage this weekend with a seven piece Dixie lineup. I'll be using Clarus and 12" Wizzy with DI to professional PA.

[bassadder]

Interesting, it wouldn't work on this gig by the sounds of it. I think I'm going to use an Underwood in to my Avalon U5 and then in to my DB751 with a 2 x 12 should be me plenty of volume to here myself, I had in the past used a Mark Bass 1x15 combo but it was too boomy on loud gigs. I still love the Acoustic Image for anything else how does the Big e 45 compare to a Ten2 Combo?

Cheers

Laurence

[Clarky]

I find Acoustic Image's amps are better than their cabs, not that the latter are bad, just not outstanding. The BigE is a lot better cab than anything AI offer, in my opinion. But as a combo, the Ten2 is a nifty thing for all but the loud gigs

[bassace]

For the loud gigs I use a 10" Wizzy on a 12" a lot of the time. The 10 gives mid range clarity and somehow enhances the bottom end of the 12, not sure how. You need a 2 ohm amp though.

[bassadder]

Hi Clarky what do you reckon of the Markbass 1x12 combo is it loud enough for your really loud gigs do you add an extension or can you use it stand alone.

Hi Roger yep please let me know about the PJB combo in a gigging situation.

[Clarky]

I've only used it on one gig so far and the CMD121P combo was plenty loud. I know BCer PTB uses this combo for his Chicago blues and swing gigs as does PaulKing who is an ace slapper. Probably best to drop them a PM Laurence

[TheRev]

[quote name='bassadder' timestamp='1373543087' post='2138814']
what's the Big E 4X5 like?

Many thanks again

Laurence
[/quote]

I'm very, very happy with my BigE MA45. I've done 10-15 gigs with it so far and I've since sold my Acoustic Image Ten2.

My Johnny Cash-esque band isn't particularly loud, but pre BigE I was having real problems hearing myself clearly enough to be able to play in tune. I came to the conclusion that the problem wasn't necessarily that my rig (LMII and BFM Omni10.5 @ 360W or the AI Ten2 running at 500W!) wasn't loud enough - my bass would start feeding back long before the amp ran out of steam, but that I simply wasn't clear enough. The volume was there, but the sound wasn't distinct enough to hear individual notes - they just ran into each other in a big indefinable booming mush.

While I was pondering exactly where this revelation left me (I was already using some very highly respected equipment in the BFM cab and the AI Ten2 - where do you go from there?) I came across the BigE cab thread on Talkbass. I swapped a few emails with Mike Arnapol, the guy who designs and builds the Big E MA45, explaining my requirements and he suggested that the MA46 (4x6" drivers) would be a good choice if I wanted enough volume to cover a big stage or if i was going to use it for electric bass as well but that the MA45 had better articulation for double bass. As I'd already come to the conclusion that I had enough volume already, I decided to go with the MA45

So, is it loud? Good question...On paper, it 'goes' much louder than my BFM Omni 10,5 (and that goes loud) - Mike reckons it will out-perform the best 2x10s on the market. In practice It's noticeably a lot more articulate and defined than the BFM, particularly when walking in first position on the E and A strings, but I'm not turning my amp up as much compared to when I was using the BFM cab - so rather than pushing lots of watts at a mushy sound, I'm ticking over nicely with a clear and defined sound. Compared to the AI Ten2 it's just leagues ahead for my purposes. Although the AI is rated at 600W (4Ohm) for me, it just couldn't push enough air to be heard on stage. At low volume (rehearsals or in my acoustic jazzy trio) it was great, but I think the Ten2 cab is designed to produce an acoustic sound in polite circumstances rather than pump out root-fifth country thumpiness.

If I'm playing pub size gigs, the cab sits behing me, next to the drummer, tilted up at about 30 degrees. The whole band can hear it and I don't usually need to put any bass through the FOH unless it's a big room. For proper stages stages where the drummer has a sidefill monitor, I put the cab on a stand to one side and just use it as a personal monitor. So far I've yet to have a gig where I couldn't hear myself - although it can't completely compensate for crap room acoustics! it's also very rare that I have feedback issues - probably because I don't need to push the amp as hard.

So far I haven't noticed any major differences in sound when I'm 6 feet away from the cab compared to when I'm stood right in front of it, but I'm still so excited at just being able to actually hear what I'm playing that the change over distance might become more obvious once I've calmed down a bit.

I'm actually quite tempted to buy a second MA45, just to see what an 8x4 would sound like....


Dave

[hubrad]

[quote name='Clarky' timestamp='1373556159' post='2139030']
I find Acoustic Image's amps are better than their cabs, not that the latter are bad, just not outstanding. The BigE is a lot better cab than anything AI offer, in my opinion. But as a combo, the Ten2 is a nifty thing for all but the loud gigs
[/quote]
I got the Mk2 AI combo a few years back, and ended up separating the head from the cab for more flexibility. The head is great, but so clean that it doesn't end up all that loud into either AI or EA cabs. The AI cab isn't exactly loud, but it's very natural sounding, to the point of being almost flat with electric bass. The thing with the cab is that, due to the downward-firing 10", the closer you are to it the more the sound flies past your feet, giving an impression of a not-so-good cab. Ask the punters at the back of the room, mind, and it's always 'the bass sounded amazing'! Brill cab for a more acoustic reinforcement application where you don't need too much onstage.
If I need more immediate volume then it's the forward firers. For myself I'm never quite so happy with the DB tone, but always had loads of positive comments from those out front.
Back OT, how are you getting on Laurence? I have a Schatten as my second pickup; fits in the wing slot like Underwood. Only use it on certain gigs where it's all basically too loud. I'm not as keen on the tone, especially bowed (pickup mounted higher up the bridge always seems to equate to more string noise and scratch) but it's much more punchy and cutting than the Realist. You can have a lend of that if you like.

[bassadder]

I got a loan of an Underwood from Tom but I need to go to my luthier to have it fitted, I'm searching for 1 pickup does it all. I reckon the best sound I had was a Fishman Full Circle in to an amp and a DPA 4099 in to FOH but loud gigs I need to be away from drums and guitar amps. My only problem with the Fishman was the piezo quack you get when recorded but I was using Olives back then and that might change with another string. I see Mike Arnapol uses one as does Rick Jones owner of Acoustic Image, so I seriously thinking of going back to that, plus I could plug it straight in to my monster Aguilar rig al a Stefan Crump

I'm fasinated with by the BigE but it's a bit of a leap of faith ordering one blind without being able to test one, I still love the Acoustic Image but it's not for this gig. Any idea on price on BigE MA45

[TheRev]

[quote name='bassadder' timestamp='1373973906' post='2143683']
I'm fasinated with by the BigE but it's a bit of a leap of faith ordering one blind without being able to test one, I still love the Acoustic Image but it's not for this gig. Any idea on price on BigE MA45
[/quote]

Mine ended up costing about £770, once import tax was added on. It worked out at Just under £600 without tax

Definitley not cheap and definitley a lot of money to splurge on something you can't try. My reasoning was that if someone like Mike Arnapol was willing to give up on his existing designs and switch 100% to the BigE deisign, then it must be something good. I had the money and I needed a solution to not being able to hear myself, so I took a gamble.

If your band is particularly loud, then a MA46 might suit you better?

[geoffbassist]

I really like the sound of the BigE. That said Im still pretty happy with my full circle >AI Clarus> mline wizzy. Volume wise its enough for everything I need and I think the Full Circle does loud really well.
Hope you get it sorted Laurence, let us know how it goes.

[bassadder]

Ok I made the decision to go back to the Full Circle I called Martyn Bailey (who is excellent by the way), thanks Geoff, he recommended the 1/4 UNC version and is going to fit the pickup in to my existing bridge and is going to remove the Schertler Stat B Vintage and probably the Bassbalseriet pickup as both are not great at higher volumes.

I'm still very interested in the BigE I'd like to know what you think Geoff as you are familiar with me as a player etc. and it how compares to your Wizzy M Line 1x12. I was going to plug my Full Circle in to my Avalon U5 al a Marc Johnson then in to my DB751 & DB212, which I believe Stefan Crump does on bigger gigs, no I'm not taking it just for jazz I do a pop gig after our swing set.

I kind of gave up gigging jazz 2 years ago for personal reasons but really want to start gigging again and want one rig that does it all rather than having loads of kit.

[fatback]

+1 to the Full Circle for feedback resistance. Some careful notch filtering and phase reversal and I can stand a few feet in front of the cab without problems. I've got a Kent Armstrong mag on as well for insurance, but i've never had to use it and we're pretty loud.

As The Rev says, a keyboard stand solves feedback problems for gigs with PA. No good in my experience if you've only backline, as the cab loses some oomph when raised up.

As for hearing yourself, plenty mids helps, as does a gramma pad for boomy stages. Also (puts tin hat on) friendly little stick on side markers. Who needs to hear?

[bassadder]

Well I now have a Full Circle on my bass and it feels and sounds great. I'd like to say a big thank you to Martyn Bailey who retro fitted it for me and did an excellent job.

Hopefully this will really help I'm going to run it straight in to my Avalon U5 then in to my DB751 al a Stefan Crump and see how that works.

I'm hoping to get a Troll Ribbon Mic off Brandon to demo which I'll send to house then run the signal back in to my in-ears. I really want to see what that's like. Anyone tried the Big E with an Acoustic Image head with a mic?