tedmanzie Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 (edited) I've recently become a big fan of the lagging bassline feel that is often used in some RnB / Hip Hop, as expertly demonstrated by Pino Palladino with D'Angello, Jose James, etc Bearing in mind I'm no expert bass player by any means, but I can play ok 'on the beat', but when I've tried to record it lagging like this it can just sound like its gone wrong and is basically out of time and rubbish... Any tips on getting this feel right? or practice tips to improve? [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pzhQeyjzf0[/media] Edited July 14, 2013 by tedmanzie Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 This is what understanding the pocket is all about. I tend to visualise it like a wheel spinning clockwise. The mark on the outside of the wheel at 12 O'Clock represent the timing for playing on the beat. There's a mark on the spinning wheel which lines up with the mark on the outside once every beat. If I play when the two match up then I'm on the beat. Either side of that then I'm either in front or behind. So I need to imagine playing behind the beat, I'll play a note when I'm imagining the mark on the spinning wheel passing the 2 oclock position. Playing consistently is as much about mind as it is about detail though. If visualisations aren't your thing, just chill out and avoid playing the note until the absolute last nanosecond before the length of gap takes it into the next beat. Things get a bit more complicated when some notes are played on and in front of the beat during the same phrase. Chicken Grease is a good example. Have a listen and see if you can tell which notes are on, in front and behind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Pino's in time. Playing with a groove like this isn't learnt through practise. You've got to get out and play it live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LukeFRC Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 [quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1373836143' post='2142155'] Pino's in time. Playing with a groove like this isn't learnt through practise. You've got to get out and play it live. [/quote] I was going to say something similar - some of it is on beat and some of it infront and some of it behind. I think you could possibly learn through practice - but more through listening to lots of music and just hearing where to put the beat. and they as chris b says play it live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzneck Posted July 14, 2013 Share Posted July 14, 2013 Apparently I play some songs behind the beat in our bands set but I have never really done it or practised it deliberately. So I've just stuck on one of the tracks and jammed along with it to try and analyse what I'm up to. I think what's happening with me is that I tend to totally relax and hear the vocals whilst feeling the 'one' - I seem (in my head) to be swaggering and shuffling whilst walking down the street - difficult to describe in words - but walking like Huggy Bear in the TV show 'Starsky and Hutch'. Now you know how old I am! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 Fat doobiage cant hurt.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jazzneck Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1373877954' post='2142415'] Fat doobiage cant hurt.... [/quote] Hoh yes....... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Horton Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 I think it is all down to groove and feel . Im afraid i have no words or idea on how to explain it or how to play it in a technical way............. But I think it is all about being relaxed , listening , feel , groove & emotion and getting those things into your playing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skej21 Posted July 15, 2013 Share Posted July 15, 2013 Watch Wooten's Groove Workshop DVD, specifically the bit about beat placement. When he places the note to play a semi quaver in front of the beat, you get that feel, so start there and play around with it. Try placing your notes on the dotted semi quaver after the beat, that's a good one and so on. Just change it up until you find a placement that sounds right to you as your 'behind (or in front!) of the beat and then use it as a reference for future grooves! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P-T-P Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 (edited) I think it was James Jamerson used an analogy of thinking about the beat as being like the butt cheeks of an well protportioned lady as she walks down the street. In essence, her feet might set the precise points of the beat but her cheeks bounce along to a far more interesting rhythm. The other analogy I've heard is to think of the beat as a horse jumping a fence. It happens very quickly, but broken down there's three major points - as his back legs leave the ground (ahead of the beat); as he's halfway over (on the beat) and as he touches down on the other side (behind the beat). For what it's worth, neither of these helped me understand the concept anything like as much as just listening a lot and knowing the song you're playing as intimately as is possible so that when you play, you aren't playing the bass notes, or the rhythm or the feel or the groove so much as just playing the song.If you're having to think a lot about the mechanics of the playing as you're doing it, it will be a barrier to interpreting the feel. Edited July 18, 2013 by P-T-P Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest bassman7755 Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 (edited) Its a bit like deliberately playing slightly flat or sharp on a fretless - its a subtle effect you have to have "in your head" in some way so that your brain and hands can then execute it instinctively. In order to do that you need to immerse yourself with exactly how it sound, maybe knock up a simple midi drums and bass backing track with your favorite multi track software and play around with small time offsets between the drums and bass. It seems that some people internalise it as "feel" e.g. being "relaxed" and others visually such as the clock (or a fat ladies but cheeks ... ) . I think myself I use some mixture of the two. After listening to effect for a while your brain will work out its own way it that is unique to you. But it can most certainly be studied and practiced like anything else. Edited July 17, 2013 by bassman7755 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedmanzie Posted July 17, 2013 Author Share Posted July 17, 2013 all good tips thanks. i will never look at a well proportioned rear in the same way... ted Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted July 17, 2013 Share Posted July 17, 2013 If you can't feel it, you can't play it. You need to put some time in and get accustomed to the groove .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyd Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 Another thing to remember is that the whole band (in particular the drummer) have to be playing with a similar feel. On Chicken Grease, the kick drum, guitar and vocal are all pretty loose as well as the bass. If you're the only one playing like this, it might well just sound 'wrong' rather than loose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BenTunnicliffe Posted July 18, 2013 Share Posted July 18, 2013 I think practise can definitely get you much closer to developing a natural feel for what it means to be in front or behind the beat. If you spend practise time learning all your subdivisions and getting used to being able to execute them all at any given time and accurately then that is a great foundation to mark out the goal posts if you like. It's probably worth noting that playing perfectly in time is a mathematical impossibility for humans but much more importantly that playing perfectly on the beat (I'm talking about recording yourself and looking on a grid and seeing a perfectly straight vertical waveform exactly where it should be on a grid) just doesn't sound that great most of the time; to my ears anyway. That said i think making efforts to know exactly where subdivisions are and gaining a strong internal clock meaning you can play time with no click or even a terrible drummer and still maintain a pulse is definitely a clever move before moving on to blurring the lines a little. Ultimately my next thought is to just go and play with live musicians and try and just let a lazy/pushed feel happen as you feel it appropriate and then check tapes and see what was achieved. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesFlashG Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 It has to be done with a good drummer I think that is also 'feeling' / following what you are trying to do... if you tried to do it with quantized midi drums it would not sound right Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cybertect Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 [quote name='tinyd' timestamp='1374135168' post='2145567']Another thing to remember is that the whole band (in particular the drummer) have to be playing with a similar feel.[/quote] Although Fleetwood Mac famously trash that particular rule and make it work, with Mick Fleetwood playing ahead of the beat on drums, and John McVie on bass, playing slightly behind it. Charlie Watts and Bill Wyman had a similar sort of arrangement. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beedster Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1373877954' post='2142415'] Fat doobiage cant hurt.... [/quote] Ha ha, neither will playing with a fat thumb, which tends to be my habit for reggae Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrismuzz Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1373877954' post='2142415'] Fat doobiage cant hurt.... [/quote] Haha my uncle told me through exact same thing and he doesn't even smoke it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iconic Posted July 26, 2013 Share Posted July 26, 2013 [quote name='tedmanzie' timestamp='1374073530' post='2145004'] all good tips thanks. i will never look at a well proportioned rear in the same way... ted [/quote] great analogy...I've also got a good excuse for looking now...."'cos I'm improving my musical timing".. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinyd Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 [quote name='cybertect' timestamp='1374851357' post='2154084'] Although Fleetwood Mac famously trash that particular rule and make it work, with Mick Fleetwood playing ahead of the beat on drums, and John McVie on bass, playing slightly behind it. Charlie Watts and Bill Wyman had a similar sort of arrangement. [/quote] That's interesting - I've never really listened to this aspect of the playing on Fleetwood Mac or the Stones. Maybe it's a case of having to know the rules before you can break them, or, more likely, they just played what sounded good and it worked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
51m0n Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 I think there are some fantastic examples of 'lazy' grooves in The Meters, Sissy Strut for one, and I think the drums and bass feel like they are sort of pulling in opposite directions a tad on that one too. Funky as hell though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tedmanzie Posted July 31, 2013 Author Share Posted July 31, 2013 [quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1375266215' post='2158953'] I think there are some fantastic examples of 'lazy' grooves in The Meters, Sissy Strut for one, and I think the drums and bass feel like they are sort of pulling in opposite directions a tad on that one too. Funky as hell though... [/quote] now we're talking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted July 31, 2013 Share Posted July 31, 2013 [quote name='cybertect' timestamp='1374851357' post='2154084'] Although Fleetwood Mac famously trash that particular rule and make it work, with Mick Fleetwood playing ahead of the beat on drums, and John McVie on bass, playing slightly behind it. Charlie Watts and Bill Wyman had a similar sort of arrangement. [/quote] Hugely successful sections but not one to really preach about..IMO. I think the Stones are acceptable by virtue of being around so long and institutionalised ...I have never liked Mcvie and Fleetwood altho they were part of a group who had great songs. I can't really watch..or rather listen to either. FWIW, not a fan of playing ahead for the most part, myself....far prefer backbeat drummer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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