Fretless Newbie

[philwood]

Hi Everyone
Ive just purchased my first unlined fretless and im loving it and not having tooooo much difficulty with intonation. I have recorded all 12 maj and minor scales on a piano and im playing against that to practice with for now.
My question is that Im finding myself looking at the fingerboard constantly to know where i am, now I know I need to use my ear but i think i also need my eyes for this, do i need to practice blindfolded or is what im doing fine for now seeing as ive just started??

Sorry for the ramble!

Thanks

[Alun]

I don't see ( oh dear, pun not intended!) a problem with it really. As you said, your ear is the ultimate tool playing fretless, but your eyes will help you get close. I don't think it's any worse than looking at the neck of a fretted. Once the muscle memory gets used to the bass, you'll find yourself needing to look less.

Cheers
Alun

[urb]

I know this is an old debate about having 'fret' lines on your fretless neck or not - personally I have them because I want the added benefit of being able to visually correct my intonation as well as hear it - but if you work really hard on staying in tune (by playing against a pitched note or chord) you will eventually be doing it effortlessly. The short answer to your question in terms of looking away from the fretless neck is that it will take some time before you can do this with some confidence.

Even master players like Gary Willis say he can only do it after over a decade of playing fretless, and even then he's quite happy to look at the fretboard - there's nothing wrong with looking at it! The main point is whether you can engage with other musicians, pay attention to the drummer, follow the chord changes etc, and do it confidently and stay in tune!

Even though I have lines on the neck of my fretless they are quite faint, so I rely more on the dots on the finger board as reference points. But I have also developed my muscle memory (like Alun says) so that I know what the stretch for a minor or major third feels like, or how to accurately playing chromatically in all sorts of positions on the neck. But I also spent every minute I am playing fretless, listening to the music I am playing - listening to whether I am in tune or not. You can practice this by laying down a chord on a keyboard or a loop pedal and just playing arpeggios or scales over it - all the time listening to how each note in the scale or arpeggio harmonises with the sustained chord. It's one thing to play unison lines and stay in tune, but to stay in pitch across a whole key center is also important.

It basically takes time and patience - but if you stick at it -lines or not - you'll get it. I have been complimented on my pitching from various people I've played with, some even saying they didn't realise my bass was fretless - so it's really the biggest challenge with fretless - and well worth the effort.

Hope all that helps - apologies for banging on - bit rambly after a long day!

Mike

[Pentode]

I took the plunge with an unlined fretless only after a few months playing bass. Sure it was pretty touch and go to start with but with practice and a [u]lot[/u] of [u]careful[/u] listening to myself, things seem to come together.

Mind you, a lot of my early practice was described as 'An imaginative use of sharps and flats.....'!

I suspect that as with a fretted bass, with enough practice, muscle memory will allow you to spend less time looking at the fingerboard.

Cheers Grahame

[Bilbo]

You'll need to play without looking if you get a reading gig!

Its like anything else. Practise makes perfect. 10,000,000 orchestral string players can't be wrong!

[The Funk]

If it's a 34" scale, then all the notes should be in the same place as on your fretted.

Looking to start with doesn't seem like a problem to me. Eventually you'll have to stop looking at the fingerboard and start looking up at the audience/chart.

[Duarte]

Really, it isn't as hard as it looks. You'll be up and down that neck in no time!

Edited August 30, 2008 by Duarte

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='philwood' post='215486' date='Jun 9 2008, 03:19 PM']My question is that Im finding myself looking at the fingerboard constantly to know where i am, now I know I need to use my ear but i think i also need my eyes for this, do i need to practice blindfolded or is what im doing fine for now seeing as ive just started??[/quote]

try it with the blast shield down,
reach out with your feelings, feel the force flow through you.




sorry couldn't resist star wars!

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='dlloyd' post='274253' date='Sep 1 2008, 09:27 AM']And there's nothing like being in a room where the acoustics conspire against you such that you can't hear what you're playing to convince you of the wisdom of this.[/quote]

In situations like this, I pick my fretted up.

My eyes don't hear very well...

[Bilbo]

[quote name='The Funk' post='273271' date='Aug 30 2008, 06:24 PM']If it's a 34" scale, then all the notes should be in the same place as on your fretted.[/quote]

Not quite. On a fretted bass you fret the note by placing your finger BETWEEN the frets. On a fretless, you place your finger where the frets would be. There is a marginal difference.

[The Funk]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='274283' date='Sep 1 2008, 10:07 AM']Not quite. On a fretted bass you fret the note by placing your finger BETWEEN the frets. On a fretless, you place your finger where the frets would be. There is a marginal difference.[/quote]

You're right. You obviously have to shift up accordingly when you start. But after a while you just know where the notes are on your fretless the same way you just know on your fretted.

[mcgraham]

I think the merits of having a lined fingerboard are pretty clear. I'm also uncertain how sound the reasoning is for saying that if classical musicians can do it on an unlined board without issue, then we should be able to without issue. For example, I am a novice violinist; a big difference that I noticed between my playing of an acoustic wood violin and an electric violin is resonance. When playing the electric, my intonation sounded fine even when it was slightly off due to a lack of resonance in the body, and it didn't give me any physical feedback telling me it was wrong. However when it was slightly off by the same amount on the acoustic, it was unpleasantly dissonant, both to my ear and by feel. From this, I would suggest that there is the additional feedback by feeling resonance with classical string instruments that simply doesn't exist to such a great extent with electric instruments.

There is of course the heavily commented landmark issue (i.e. basses have fewer identifying features along the length of their fingerboards to help identify fingering position and intonation, whilst classical instruments do), but I (personally) only foresee that being an issue if your bass position relative to you keeps shifting, i.e. muscle memory should be the dominating factor.

Any other thoughts? This was just my experience. It'd be good to hear from some experienced classical musicians.

Mark

[Jase]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='274283' date='Sep 1 2008, 09:07 AM']Not quite. On a fretted bass you fret the note by placing your finger BETWEEN the frets. On a fretless, you place your finger where the frets would be. There is a marginal difference.[/quote]


.....and also the further you go up the neck you'll find yourself playing just past the line, the note isn't directly on the line for the full scale of the neck, lined or unlined it is a challenging and at the same time a rewarding instrument to play. You become more aware of what you and others are playing too. Look at the board everyone else does

[MuseMatt]

afaik.. you don't really play BETWEEN frets on a fretted bass but you lay your finger on or very close near the edge of the fret. A fretless bass would therefore just be shifting your fingers a fret's lenght?

[The Funk]

[quote name='MuseMatt' post='275334' date='Sep 2 2008, 12:08 PM']afaik.. you don't really play BETWEEN frets on a fretted bass but you lay your finger on or very close near the edge of the fret. A fretless bass would therefore just be shifting your fingers a fret's lenght?[/quote]

Pretty much.

[Cernael]

[quote name='Jase' post='275152' date='Sep 2 2008, 02:43 AM'].....and also the further you go up the neck you'll find yourself playing just past the line, the note isn't directly on the line for the full scale of the neck, lined or unlined it is a challenging and at the same time a rewarding instrument to play. You become more aware of what you and others are playing too. Look at the board everyone else does [/quote]
Huh?

Sounds like your fretless isn't set up with proper intonation.

[Jase]

[quote name='Cernael' post='275668' date='Sep 2 2008, 05:07 PM']Huh?

Sounds like your fretless isn't set up with proper intonation.[/quote]

You can set your intonation on a fretless depending how you want to play it in relationship with the lines

[Cernael]

Sure you can, but why would you want it like that? It seems just...baffling, to have it set up to enforce a different approach to the fretlines depending on where on the neck you're playing.

[Jase]

[quote name='Cernael' post='276164' date='Sep 3 2008, 11:10 AM']Sure you can, but why would you want it like that? It seems just...baffling, to have it set up to enforce a different approach to the fretlines depending on where on the neck you're playing.[/quote]

It's not baffling, the notes are not directly on the line, obviously you can set it to be.... but elsewhere on the neck they would be past or behind slightly.