So what is 'tone' actually made of?

[ZenBasses]

Although I have little expertise in this area

It is interesting and fun to read the replies and research the links provided

[KevB]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1373990656' post='2143948']
That might be the tone you want, but is it the tone you need for the band to sound good when you're all playing together. IME they are two different things.
[/quote]

This is a very good point and commonly overlooked. Get the band together for a long jam session and make it clear you are going to be doing a lot of tone adjustments so you might not be playing all way through most songs. Make sure you have a long lead or go wireless so you can get far enough away to take the [i]whole band[/i] sound in context of the adjustments you are making. My guess is you will probably be surprised at how severe an adjustment you make before it becomes really obvious in the 'final mix' compared with relatively subtle adjustment in the confines of your private practice space when you only have the bass itself to listen to.

[Ben Jamin]

I think tone is just balance of the output of frequencies, the keyword being balance. To get the best 'tone' you've got to look at the context of what you're playing - it all depends on what you're trying to achieve with your part. Are you underpinning the harmony of a dense mix of instruments with simple but solid low-end (some kind of rock or dub?) or are you playing more melodic lines with movement that needs more clarity and note definition (maybe a small jazz band). You want your part to be effective without getting in the way of other parts. A bass tone that sounds great on it's own can often just muddy up a mix by clashing with the frequency balances/'tone' of the other instruments, or fail to output enough in a certain frequency range to fill the gap required. Sometimes other musicians are at fault for not leaving enough room for your part - classic examples being guitarists who have too much low mid/bass in their overdriven tones (sounds great by itself for sure) and keyboard players who just love their big thick pads and make full use of the low end of their 88 keys (again, probably sounds great by itself) So for me context is the most important thing in achieving the balance.

In terms of practically achieving the right tone, I think technique makes a big difference (the whole 'it's in the fingers' thing) in terms of the getting the right attack/decay/sustain and harmonic content etc. In terms of bass playing the main variables are probably where you hit the string and with what part of your finger/thumb/plectrum/nail/toe/whatever and with what force. Which string you use makes a difference too - an E sounds different on the A string than it does on the D or E - on some basses this is more pronounced than others, depending on the instruments' construction and what type of strings you're using and ultimately how balanced the tension is. Different instruments will lean towards different harmonic content because of their construction and critically their electronics/pick-up placement (which is why a Precision will always sound like a Precision, a Jazz like a Jazz etc). Get it right there, and then move onto EQ/compression. Carve out their frequencies that you don't need/interfere with other parts and emphasize frequencies that help you achieve what you want from your part. Compression for bass isn't a necessity if you're technique's fine but it can help emphasize different parts of your playing and shift the harmonic content around a bit (it's a good way to engineer a punchy kick drum sound, for example)

Ultimately though, it's all up to the guy at the back of the venue/in the studio who sits behind this, so being nice to these people can really help with your tone

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='operative451' timestamp='1373980915' post='2143783']
I'm using 'tone' to mean sound made by the player, instrument and amp all working together - like in say the gear forum where someone would talk about 'Duff McKagen's tone' - so yes, tell me everything..! ;D I guess what i want to know is, what to adjust to get certain elements of sound - like for instance fiddling with mid-range from a total scoop can go 'muffled muffled muffled CLANKY cardboard' quite easily. And boosting overdrive can add that throb to the low end that you get when the bass is turned up all the way, but again, it's easy to go from throb to fart to speaker jumping out all over the floor...

And i find that a bit of overdrive becomes sort of dirty compression on the way to full break up, which sounds nasty until it gets really distorted at which point it becomes fuzz!

So (i'm told) the reason we 'like' valve tone more than solid state is that it's dirtier! The valves distort, compress and colour the sound, while transistors and digital replicate it more perfectly which makes our monkey hearing go 'yeuk!!'
[/quote]

sound is quite complex - one of the best ways to experience this is by playing - luckily with a computer and headphones you can... find a way to plug into your computer and run garageband, PC equivalent or something a bit fancier - now look for a parametric EQ - the garage band one has a 4 band one turn on the scope and have a play - you can see the graph of which freq. the sound is louder- now play with cutting and boosting the frequencies and moving them up and down - listen to how the tone sounds.
Then try doing that and playing in different places too - the right hand can have a massive effect on tone - and this is before we've touched amps, the bass, the pups, the set up or anything.
What Eq does your bass/amp have? the best way to learn is to play and listen - for instance-
"[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]The sound i 'want' is thick without being muddy, bitey without going fizzy when i hit the fuzz, twangy without clanking (ok, that might be my fingers)."
sounds like boost the low mids not the bass, and make sure you're not boosting the treble to much - if theres too much clank raise the strings a bit and it will also possibly thicken up your tone. [/font][/color]

[icastle]

It depends on who's making the tone.

If it's me, then sugar, spice and all things nice.

If it's someone else then generally mouse poo.

[steve-bbb]

i do admire your optimism with your OP

but alas i fear you would have better chance of an answer by asking what is the best bass metal to convert to gold

[Dingus]

[quote name='operative451' timestamp='1373988053' post='2143906']
You're absolutely correct - i don't know what the question is yet... The sound i 'want' is thick without being muddy, bitey without going fizzy when i hit the fuzz, twangy without clanking (ok, that might be my fingers).

I think what i actually want is to know where to start the twiddling! There must be some rules of thumb? Other than, 'for more bass turn up the bass' - like for a lot of guitar amps for instance, its more 'for more bass turn down the treble'!

This is totally a noob beginner question i know - i've not been bassing long and in my previous world (old-school goth guitar) the default setting was chorus and reverb turned up all the way and distortion on the loud bits.. ;D
[/quote]

In practical terms , if this is the sound you want , you may well find you need far less equipment to achieve it than you think . I am a minimalist when it comes to equipment , and I would recommend only adding additional items such as effects etcetera if you have found a specific need for them yourself . If you have a good bass and play it through a good amp you should be able to get a decent tone that pleases you with a little experimentation and trial and error . As others have mentioned , always bear in mind that your perceived tone will change depending on the other instruments playing along with you ( usually playing over you, as the bassist ) and the overall volume the band are playing at . A certain amount depends on how much money you spend , but it's very easy to get a rubbish tone with expensive equipment if you haven't chosen well for your own taste and musical situation and don't know how to adjust it to achieve what you really want . It takes time and experience to find what works for you . A big part of your tone is also how you play the instrument and physically approach producing the notes with your fingers , a pick , your thumb or whatever .

The tone you describe as your ideal is certainly available to you in the right circumstances . However , sounding deep without being muddy is one of the great balancing acts of being a bass player and can hinge upon the relationship between the physics of low fequency sound , room acoustics and how the human ear percieves music . Settings that sound deep and clear in one venue will sound muddy and indistinct in another . You may find that finding a compressor suitable for use with a bass guitar helps you get a lot closer to the sound you have got in mind . They may not be the most exciting effect to some people , but a compressor is an essential part of many bass players overall tone and the way that they are heard in the final mix . Regarding distortion , a lot of bass players in certain genres of music are using this effect more and more , but my own personal opinion is that , although it can sound impressive in certain situations and is an easy way to get some cut through the overall mix , in an ensemble situation more than just a little can end up confusing the overall sound when a clean , solid bass guitar sound would serve the music better overall , but that's just my two pence worth . I come from the 1980's school of bass playing where distortion was something you tried to eliminate from the sound of your rig . In absolute terms , the way to get a distorted bass guitar sound without getting too " fizzy " and managing to retain the solid low end punch in your sound is to split the signal coming from your bass and distort the high frequencies whilst leaving the lower frquencies clean and unaffected , but that can take a lot of extra equipment and is a lot of messing about for the average bass player so not many people go that route . There is a lot to be said for keeping every aspect of your setup as simple as possible , not least of all because there is less to go wrong .

Edited July 16, 2013 by Dingus

[ikay]

[quote name='steve-bbb' timestamp='1373995483' post='2144046']
what is the best bass metal to convert to gold
[/quote]
To be honest I'd be more interested in that

[peteb]

Perhaps this is a good starting point – Bryan Beller explaining how to listen for frequencies in your bass tone to get the sound you want thru your monitors:

[url="http://www.bassplayer.com/article/monitors-in-metal--cleaning-up-the-low-end/4996"]http://www.bassplayer.com/article/monitors-in-metal--cleaning-up-the-low-end/4996[/url]

He is talking here about monitors, but you can easily use this information for sorting out the sound coming out of your cab. Also, he is only discussing the bottom end of your sound, but that is often where there are the most difficulties…

[operative451]

Thanks for all the replies, i had a feeling this would start some discussion and this has been great so far!
Yeah, to complicate stuff, what with my 'band's oeuvre being satirical comedy, the sound we need depends on the song! What we've learned so far is to use the POD tube preamp and add any effects later for recording!
All this stuff is so subjective too, it's really interesting to see what everyone thinks!
Ok, time to go twiddle knows..

[superclive]

Pretty sure its made out of sex, just like a classic stingray.

[Mr. Foxen]

Timbre.

[JapanAxe]

Happy twiddling. When experimenting with the EQ knobs and sliders on your amp in turn, don't forget to try cutting frequencies, as some of the best sounds can be found this way.

[Lord Sausage]

Any one else just plug in then turn knobs til it sounds good?!

[Dad3353]

[quote name='operative451' timestamp='1373971442' post='2143650']...how does one go about reverse-engineering bass tone?[/quote]

Good evening, operative451 (or may I call you OP..?)...

Firstly, I must warn that I am principally a drummer; this could colour your evaluation of my comments here...

I would recommend going through a similar exercise as when evaluation hifi equipment. Start with a basis of absolutely flat, or as neutral as one can. Use this as a reference point, and use it for a fairly long period (months rather than weeks; ideally years...).
Once accustomed to hearing this as a 'normal' sound, experiment with small, concious doses of change (low, high, mid, whatever...) for a short spell, then revert back to the reference 'tone'. After a while (not that long, really...) one gets to understand, firstly, what change gives what effect and secondly, that most of these adjustments are 'less good' than the original 'neutral' sound. There are uses for 'sculptured' tone, and one can be very creative using all the variables in our systems (bass controls, pre-amp, effects, cab choice...), all of which is positive, but (to me, at least...) only if done deliberately for a specific reason to have a specific result. 'Accidentally' creating a great sound as a 'one off' event can happen (and does...) but there is not much merit in coming across such a freak, and it can rarely be repeated, unless the ears have been 'trained' to have this neutral reference point.
Hope this helps; subject to completion, correction or contradiction from others, of course.

The other method is to only play basses made from 'tonewood'.

[Lowender]

[quote name='operative451' timestamp='1373988053' post='2143906']
You're absolutely correct - i don't know what the question is yet... The sound i 'want' is thick without being muddy, bitey without going fizzy when i hit the fuzz, twangy without clanking (ok, that might be my fingers).

I think what i actually want is to know where to start the twiddling! There must be some rules of thumb? Other than, 'for more bass turn up the bass' - like for a lot of guitar amps for instance, its more 'for more bass turn down the treble'!

This is totally a noob beginner question i know - i've not been bassing long and in my previous world (old-school goth guitar) the default setting was chorus and reverb turned up all the way and distortion on the loud bits.. ;D
[/quote]

Start with everything flat. Sometimes you don't need to go beyond that.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Lowender

[Lowender]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1373990183' post='2143940']
which is all frequency information. Saying timbre is nothing more than frequency (like xilddx did) is correct. Timbre is variation of frequency information.
[/quote]

I think we have a semantics problem here. What are you calling frequencies? Two basses can be playing the same note with the same EQ (same frequency curve) and sound completely different., If the bass has an inherent "frequency difference" then it would be a matter of adding or subtracting frequencies but that's never the case. Tone is also in the wood and the electronics, even the shape of the bass will be a factor. You can call it ALL frequencies but that's misleading IMO.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1374018841' post='2144406']
I think we have a semantics problem here. What are you calling frequencies? Two basses can be playing the same note with the same EQ (same frequency curve) and sound completely different., If the bass has an inherent "frequency difference" then it would be a matter of adding or subtracting frequencies but that's never the case. Tone is also in the wood and the electronics, even the shape of the bass will be a factor. You can call it ALL frequencies but that's misleading IMO.
[/quote]
It's ALL frequencies. The differences in wood, electronics, shape, EVERYTHING, affects the levels and frequencies of the harmonic overtones of the fundamental note. An A at 440Hz on the A string will have a slightly different emphasis of the harmonic overtones than an A at 440Hz played on the E string due to a number of physical and mechanical factors, the pressure of the pluck, the angle, the part of the strings, the thickness of the strings, the fret seating, the wood densities, string lengths, EVERYTHING. Then chuck a cable, effects, amp, loudspeaker, humidity, air temperature, all these affect timbre.

Harmonic overtones are still frequencies, there's no semantics. I think you are labouring under the misapprehension that only the fundamental is referred to as the frequency. TRy adding a mass of low mids to your bass tone on your amp or whatever, it can change the pitch because of overemphasis of certain overtone frequencies, obviously this changes the timbre too. Timbre is a bunch of frequencies.

[Ben Jamin]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1374018841' post='2144406']


I think we have a semantics problem here. What are you calling frequencies? Two basses can be playing the same note with the same EQ (same frequency curve) and sound completely different., If the bass has an inherent "frequency difference" then it would be a matter of adding or subtracting frequencies but that's never the case. Tone is also in the wood and the electronics, even the shape of the bass will be a factor. You can call it ALL frequencies but that's misleading IMO.
[/quote]

It's sound, so ultimately it's all just frequencies. But not everything can be changed with a graphic equalizer. The difference between bass-specific sounds is definitely down to the construction and hardware/electronics/strings/musician - all of which produce different overtones aside from the fundamental frequency. No instrument (other than a synthesizer) can produce just a fundamental frequency - every instrument has it's different overtones which give it it's own 'voice'. Hence flutes sound different to violins. You've got to factor in waveform, attack, decay, sustain and all that stuff too - EQ can't do much to change that.

Edited July 17, 2013 by Ben Jamin

[Lowender]

It's semantics. The OP is looking for an understanding of getting a sound and people are debating minutia technicalities and what is subjective and objective. Keep it simple. Bass, mids, treble and the inherent qualities that can not be controlled electronically. I think that's enough to digest.

[ikay]

The unanswerable question - to summarise:

Inherent 'tone' of bass
- Neck and body woods/construction
- Pickup type/construction
- Position of pickups

Strings
- Winding type
- Material
- Gauge
- Age

Playing technique
- Fingers/pick
- Plucking position
- Touch

Onboard tone shaping
- Active EQ
- Passive tone control
- Pickup blend/balance

Outboard effects
- EQ
- Compression
- Distortion
- Delay/modulation
- Pitch shifting
- Envelope shaping

Amp
- EQ
- Compression
- Speakers

PA/Desk
- EQ
- Compression
- Speakers

Venue
- Acoustics

Aka everything. What have I missed?

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1374018619' post='2144402']
Start with everything flat. Sometimes you don't need to go beyond that.
[/quote]

But where is flat?

On an amp with a passive tone stack "flat" is with the tone controls on maximum. On others it's with the controls in the centre, but simply adding in circuitry will colour the sound to some degree.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1374025350' post='2144432']
It's semantics. The OP is looking for an understanding of getting a sound and people are debating minutia technicalities and what is subjective and objective. Keep it simple. Bass, mids, treble and the inherent qualities that can not be controlled electronically. I think that's enough to digest.
[/quote]

We know what the OP wants now, the explanation was more for your benefit.

But like iKay said, the question is not really answerable beyond the basics. If it was, the answers would already be available.

Someone on here said not to forget subtractive EQ and I totally concur with that.

I think the OP wants some answers like 'Thump = 450-550Hz' 'Bite = 2.7-3.4KHz' etc, but it doesn't really work like that as small adjustments in those ranges can have dramatic positive and negative effects, and I've got better tones with subtractive EQ in some ranges.

The OP has a POD so I would suggest choosing a suitable amp model and using the built in parametric EQ, sweep each of the four until you get what you LIKE hearing. Then tweak the EQ with the band in rehearsal. I do this for my basic tone, copy the patch and then add effects and stuff for all the variants I use. As the OP has an amp too, she could try plugging into the effects return to use the power stage only so as not to have the preamp interfere.

Edited July 17, 2013 by xilddx

[operative451]

Thanks for all the great answers! So last night included half a bottle of wine and a load of fiddling, twiddling and general noise making.. ;D I nabbed a load of 'tone' videos from youtube which gave me ideas of order to plug things into things, and looked at stuff like compression and where that would go in a mix.

Annoyingly, out of my two little rubbishy amps alone, i can actually get a sound i like, but i want a good DI tone that i can take elsewhere so nobody laughs at my dodgy amps.

So, i moved the amps to a different spot so i can get more distant, set each one until i got a sound i liked out of both, playing to their strengths - 'twang' from the little squier, and scooped thump from the larger no-namer. Then with them both on, twiddled so that there weren't too many frequency clashes.

It actually appears that the magic bullet is my ancient mk1 zoom 505 that i bought a bunch of analogue stuff to replace! Right at the end of the chain, using the stereo out to both amps - Limiter set on medium, little bit of room reverb, some noise gate and bass boost and its sounding pretty good..!

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1374018841' post='2144406'] I think we have a semantics problem here. What are you calling frequencies?[/quote]



Frequencies are frequencies. I'm specifically referring to the complete harmonic spectrum of a sound. When you play a note on the bass guitar you don't hear a single frequency, you hear dozens all piled up on top of each other.

[quote]Two basses can be playing the same note with the same EQ (same frequency curve) and sound completely different.,[/quote]

Yes, because the[b] time-varying harmonic (frequency) spectrum of the instruments is different. [/b]

[quote] If the bass has an inherent "frequency difference" then it would be a matter of adding or subtracting frequencies but that's never the case. Tone is also in the wood and the electronics, even the shape of the bass will be a factor. You can call it ALL frequencies but that's misleading IMO. [/quote]

In terms of sound produced all that wood and electronics and shape of bass do is to alter the variation of the harmonic spectrum. This is how modelling amps and guitars work. Its not semantics, its basic physics.