So what is 'tone' actually made of?

[operative451]

Bit of a question then? And apologies if this should go over in 'gear' - i couldn't decide whether it was amps/cabs or effects. What i'd love for this thread is for it to be not so much 'to get x sound, use y' but more 'this is why x sounds the way it does'.

Like using analogue synths, pre samplers - if you wanted a 'brass' sound for instance, you had to reverse engineer the original sound and go 'ok, this is a square wave with a medium attack and quick decay and a splash of harmonic distortion' *twiddle twiddle*..

So for instance, my preferred sounds are kind of dubby reggae for clean tones, and for dirtied up, think RATM going into JAMC territory. I know for reggae its effectively 'cut everything but bass. Boost the bass' - for instance, but what does that *do*? Like a really rumbly bass tone does effectively distort the low notes? So to get that sound quietly or DI do we need a bit of overdrive?

And at what point does fuzz become fizz?

I know probably the answer is a 2 grand valve amp and 8ft of cabs, but for those of us who don't have that level of resourcing, how does one go about reverse-engineering bass tone?

[the boy]

This should be interesting.

[operative451]

[quote name='the boy' timestamp='1373971639' post='2143654']
This should be interesting.
[/quote]

Hopefully! I'm hoping for some useful/thoughtful responses rather than the 'that's a stupid question, go get a marshall/ampeg/vox/POD' etc responses i've seen on guitar forums..!

[BigRedX]

Tone is made up of everything from how you play to the instruments and other equipment you use to the acoustic space (real or virtual) you use them in. And then obviously it is filtered through the listeners' ears and brain and ultimately it's totally subjective.

The important things to worry about are does it sound good to you (and the other musicians you are playing with) in the context of the piece you are playing with the other instruments and arrangement. That is all.

[Lowender]

The original question is conflating a few points so it's a little confusing as to what you really want to know.

Distortion is a separate entity to "tone" since it's a signal that is being pushed beyond its sonic capabilities.

What does boosting the bass do? Seems pretty obvious -- increases the low frequencies.

Tone is made up of many things. Do you understand how a graphic EQ works? That's a part of it. But there's also an inherent tone that goes beyond frequencies. That's why a J can't be EQ'd to sound exactly like a P bass and vice versa. There are other factors involved.

Then there's the overtone series.

That's for starters. I think the OP will get a more detailed answer if he modifies his question.

[zero9]

Mainly fingers (where it involves bass players)

[Lowender]

Sorry -- HER question. : )

[xilddx]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1373976313' post='2143716']
The original question is conflating a few points so it's a little confusing as to what you really want to know.

Distortion is a separate entity to "tone" since it's a signal that is being pushed beyond its sonic capabilities.

What does boosting the bass do? Seems pretty obvious -- increases the low frequencies.

Tone is made up of many things. Do you understand how a graphic EQ works? That's a part of it. But there's also an inherent tone that goes beyond frequencies. That's why a J can't be EQ'd to sound exactly like a P bass and vice versa. There are other factors involved.

Then there's the overtone series.

That's for starters. I think the OP will get a more detailed answer if he modifies his question.
[/quote]
Timbre does not go beyond frequencies.

Sound is air movement. Timbre is a fundamental pitch with harmonic overtones and what overtones you emphasise give the timbre its qualities. But it depends on the ears and brain of the person processing the air movement and where they are in relation to the source. At least that's how I understand it. There are some experts on here who will hopefully answer properly.

Edited July 16, 2013 by xilddx

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1373977286' post='2143736']
Timbre does not go beyond frequencies.
[/quote]

True, but the bit that's hard to replicate between different instruments with EQ alone is the way timbre varies over the course of the note. I think this is what Lowender was alluding to.

[ikay]

The OP's question is really about 'timbre' not about 'tone'.

This wikipedia entry outlines the various components of timbre pretty well - [url="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timbre"]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timbre[/url]

This article goes into more technical depth on digital synthesis of timbre - [url="http://articles.ircam.fr/textes/Wessel78a/"]http://articles.ircam.fr/textes/Wessel78a/[/url]

Edited July 16, 2013 by ikay

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1373976313' post='2143716']
Distortion is a separate entity to "tone" since it's a signal that is being pushed beyond its sonic capabilities.
[/quote]

IMO distortion or any other effect is just as much a component of overall tone as anything else.

That why I say the important thing is does the bass sound right to you and the musicians you are playing with in the context of the music, instruments and arrangement.

[operative451]

I'm using 'tone' to mean sound made by the player, instrument and amp all working together - like in say the gear forum where someone would talk about 'Duff McKagen's tone' - so yes, tell me everything..! ;D I guess what i want to know is, what to adjust to get certain elements of sound - like for instance fiddling with mid-range from a total scoop can go 'muffled muffled muffled CLANKY cardboard' quite easily. And boosting overdrive can add that throb to the low end that you get when the bass is turned up all the way, but again, it's easy to go from throb to fart to speaker jumping out all over the floor...

And i find that a bit of overdrive becomes sort of dirty compression on the way to full break up, which sounds nasty until it gets really distorted at which point it becomes fuzz!

So (i'm told) the reason we 'like' valve tone more than solid state is that it's dirtier! The valves distort, compress and colour the sound, while transistors and digital replicate it more perfectly which makes our monkey hearing go 'yeuk!!'

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1373976313' post='2143716']
Distortion is a separate entity to "tone" since it's a signal that is being pushed beyond its sonic capabilities.
[/quote]

At the risk of being pedantic, this is wrong. Sounds don't have "capabilities". Distortion is the effect on tone of [i]electrical components[/i] being pushed (often, deliberately) beyond their capabilities.

To the OP: this website is quite informative and may answer many of your questions:

[url="http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/basics.html#general"]http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/basics.html#general[/url]

I'd suggest starting here:

[url="http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/sound.spectrum.html"]http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/jw/sound.spectrum.html[/url]

[Guest bassman7755]

There are only two variables ultimately: harmonic content and volume envelope.

There are a lot of things that effect those variables though and most things affect both of them e.g. single coil pickup will result in a sharper attack (envelope) and more highs (harmonic content).

[Skol303]

[quote name='operative451' timestamp='1373971442' post='2143650']Bit of a question then?... how does one go about reverse-engineering bass tone?[/quote]

Tone obviously has a formal definition, that being [i]"a steady periodic sound, characterized by its duration, pitch, intensity (or loudness), and timbre (or quality)"[/i] (Wikipedia). But that's not how most of us think of tone. It tends to be shorthand for "how we interpret the sounds reaching our ears" and as such is open to all kinds of subjectivity and personal opinion. It's like discussing "what's the best shade of red"?

Generally speaking, to reverse-engineer a particular tone - bass or otherwise - you need to:

1) Train your ears (and brain!) to recognise the characteristics that make up a sound. For instance: which frequencies are dominant; what sort of waveform is it, etc? This comes with practice through lots of critical listening.

2) Understand the signal path of the sound you're trying to emulate. What devices has the sound passed through on its way to your ears? - from the instrument, to the amp, to any FX in the chain, to the room it was recording in, on what type of mic, etc, etc. Not to mention the variables imparted by whatever listening device you're using.

There are no shortcuts to replicating a tone. Unfortunately it does come down to the *twiddle twiddle* you mention in your original post... so have fun twiddling! And twaddling!

[Lowender]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1373977286' post='2143736']

Timbre does not go beyond frequencies.

[/quote]

Huh? Of course it does. An "A" on a guitar and a "A" in the same register on a trumpet have completly different timbres while sharing the same frequency of 440. Even the same register E on a bass on the E string and on the A string have a different timbre.

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1373984653' post='2143838']
Huh? Of course it does. An "A" on a guitar and a "A" in the same register on a trumpet have completly different timbres while sharing the same frequency of 440. [/quote]

They share the same[b] fundamental [/b]frequency. They do not share the same harmonic spectrum.

A large part of the perceived timbre differences are down to the (frequency) differences in spectral content.

[Lowender]

[quote name='operative451' timestamp='1373980915' post='2143783']
I'm using 'tone' to mean sound made by the player, instrument and amp all working together - like in say the gear forum where someone would talk about 'Duff McKagen's tone' - so yes, tell me everything..! ;D I guess what i want to know is, what to adjust to get certain elements of sound - like for instance fiddling with mid-range from a total scoop can go 'muffled muffled muffled CLANKY cardboard' quite easily. And boosting overdrive can add that throb to the low end that you get when the bass is turned up all the way, but again, it's easy to go from throb to fart to speaker jumping out all over the floor...

And i find that a bit of overdrive becomes sort of dirty compression on the way to full break up, which sounds nasty until it gets really distorted at which point it becomes fuzz!

So (i'm told) the reason we 'like' valve tone more than solid state is that it's dirtier! The valves distort, compress and colour the sound, while transistors and digital replicate it more perfectly which makes our monkey hearing go 'yeuk!!'
[/quote]

You're still not asking a direct question. There are hundreds of variables. If you had a specific sound in mind we can make some suggestions. (It still takes some experimenting to get it where you like it). You also seem to be hung up on distortion which is completely separate from "tone." It's a "distortion" of the original signal.

Edited July 16, 2013 by Lowender

[Lowender]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1373984975' post='2143848']
They share the same[b] fundamental [/b]frequency. They do not share the same harmonic spectrum.

A large part of the perceived timbre differences are down to the (frequency) differences in spectral content.
[/quote]

yes -- harmonic spectrum . i.e. "timbre."

[xilddx]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1373984653' post='2143838']


Huh? Of course it does. An "A" on a guitar and a "A" in the same register on a trumpet have completly different timbres while sharing the same frequency of 440. Even the same register E on a bass on the E string and on the A string have a different timbre.
[/quote]
Ok man. That's what I said. YOU said tone goes beyond frequencies. It does not.

[operative451]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1373985012' post='2143849']
You're still not asking a direct question. There are hundreds of variables. If you had a specific sound in mind we can make some suggestions. (It still takes some experimenting to get it where you like it). You also seem to be hung up on distortion which is completely separate from "tone." It's a "distortion" of the original signal.
[/quote]

You're absolutely correct - i don't know what the question is yet... The sound i 'want' is thick without being muddy, bitey without going fizzy when i hit the fuzz, twangy without clanking (ok, that might be my fingers).

I think what i actually want is to know where to start the twiddling! There must be some rules of thumb? Other than, 'for more bass turn up the bass' - like for a lot of guitar amps for instance, its more 'for more bass turn down the treble'!

This is totally a noob beginner question i know - i've not been bassing long and in my previous world (old-school goth guitar) the default setting was chorus and reverb turned up all the way and distortion on the loud bits.. ;D

[skankdelvar]

[quote name='operative451' timestamp='1373971442' post='2143650']
How does one go about reverse-engineering bass tone?
[/quote]

I suppose one way would be to close mike some rigs of choice, play all the notes on the fretboard at varying levels of attack and EQ, analyse the output, translate everything into some charts, sit down with a cup of tea and have a good read.

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1373985133' post='2143852']


yes -- harmonic spectrum . i.e. "timbre."
[/quote]

which is all frequency information. Saying timbre is nothing more than frequency (like xilddx did) is correct. Timbre is variation of frequency information.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='operative451' timestamp='1373988053' post='2143906']
The sound i 'want' is thick without being muddy, bitey without going fizzy when i hit the fuzz, twangy without clanking (ok, that might be my fingers).
[/quote]

That might be the tone you want, but is it the tone you need for the band to sound good when you're all playing together. IME they are two different things.

[ikay]

[quote name='operative451' timestamp='1373988053' post='2143906']
There must be some rules of thumb?
[/quote]

This 'glossary of bass tone' (bark, bite, throaty, thuddy, thick, transparent etc) describes each tone and may be a useful starting point for building some rules of thumb: - [url="http://wiki.talkbass.com/index.php?title=Bass_Tone_Glossary"]http://wiki.talkbass...s_Tone_Glossary[/url]

Edited July 16, 2013 by ikay