Theory the very basics.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='rk7' timestamp='1374215566' post='2146452']
I'm fairly sure we have departed from the original post here chaps.

It was a simple request for advice on where to find some good theory information.

RK
[/quote]
Hi RK, I see no problem with the development of the conversation, if the OP needs further advice I'm sure he'll ask and I'm also sure it'll be forthcoming.
I think some conversation on the merits of learning either formally or being an autodidact or both, can be helpful to the beginner, I started out exclusively learning from records, but at 20 realising that to be a pro required wider knowledge I went to music college and learned the other stuff, It's been utterly invaluable.

[Grangur]

[quote name='rk7' timestamp='1374215566' post='2146452']
I'm fairly sure we have departed from the original post here chaps.

It was a simple request for advice on where to find some good theory information.

RK
[/quote] Too right chaps. Question answered. Now stop talking in the ranks. Go find another question to answer.

Anyone would think this is an internet chat site! [size=4] [/size]

[rk7]

Ok, hands up, who has googled 'autodidact'?

apart from me, that is.

[iceonaboy]

[quote name='jakenewmanbass' timestamp='1374225322' post='2146561']
I went to music college and learned the other stuff, It's been utterly invaluable.
[/quote]

Aaah, now that really is the way to learn. Good on ya mate

[Coilte]

I suppose it all boils down to what a person wants (i.e. their goals). If the preferance is to play covers, then it is possible to get by with little or no theory knowledge. However, I have come across, in this and other forums, people who grow tired of the confines of playing covers. They find themselves in a rut and want to "spread their musical wings" a little. The only way to do this is through learning some theory.

[iceonaboy]

[sub][size=5]Buy a copy of bass aerobics. Its a great book [/size][/sub]

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='rk7' timestamp='1374229318' post='2146608']
Ok, hands up, who has googled 'autodidact'?

apart from me, that is.
[/quote]
So now you are an autodidact.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1374231358' post='2146652']
I suppose it all boils down to what a person wants (i.e. their goals). If the preferance is to play covers, then it is possible to get by with little or no theory knowledge.
[/quote]

Personally I find theory invaluable for playing covers, it allows me to 1) transcribe and learn it much quicker 2) Understand exactly what liberties I can and cannot take with the bassline.

[cloudburst]

[quote name='rk7' timestamp='1374229318' post='2146608']
Ok, hands up, who has googled 'autodidact'?

apart from me, that is.
[/quote]
I thought it was someone who fell naturally into the thespian trade due to growing up in that kind of family environment.

CB

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1374231358' post='2146652']
I suppose it all boils down to what a person wants (i.e. their goals). If the preferance is to play covers, then it is possible to get by with little or no theory knowledge. However, I have come across, in this and other forums, people who grow tired of the confines of playing covers. They find themselves in a rut and want to "spread their musical wings" a little. The only way to do this is through learning some theory.
[/quote]
Theory is the same whether you're playing someone else's song or your own.

[CamdenRob]

It really is simple if you break it down. I apologise if this sounds pretentious, I don’t mean it that way. I learnt myself using this kind of foundation and it’s helped several students of mine in the past get to grips with things.

I’m bored at work this afternoon and I find theory more interesting than drawing pipes so I’ve typed out the following. Here is my tuppence worth;

Can you play a C major scale? Can you play two octaves of that major scale (same shape / intervals starting on the last note)? If notes confuse you use numbers to represent the positions on the fretboard.

C(1) D(2) E(3) F(4) G(5) A(6) B(7) C(8)
D(9) E(10) F(11) G(12) A(13) B(14) C(15)

All scales, modes and chords in the diatonic system come from this.

If you play notes 1 – 8, C – C you have the major scale. For a basic chord take the 1[sup]st[/sup], 3[sup]rd[/sup] and 5[sup]th[/sup] note of this scale C – E – G this gives you a C Major chord. So we can play the notes 1 – 8 as a melody under the chord of C Major.

We may however wish to play more than one chord… shock horror… fortunately theory has provided us with another 6 basic chords (triads) that are related to C Major.

Now play notes 2 – 9, D – D over this two octave major scale. What we have here is a Dorian mode. Take the 1[sup]st[/sup], 3[sup]rd[/sup] and 5[sup]th[/sup] notes of this progression D – F – A and you have a D Minor Chord (the 3[sup]rd[/sup] is a semi tone flatter making this triad a minor chord) thus the C Major and D Minor triads are related.

You can also play 3 – 10, E – E (Phrygian) 4 – 11, F – F (Lydian) 5 – 12, G – G (Mixolydian) 6 – 13, A – A (Aeolian) and 7 – 14, B – B (Locrian) All of these modes are in the key of C as we are still only using the white notes C D E F G A B C

If you take the 1[sup]st[/sup], 3[sup]rd[/sup] and 5[sup]th[/sup] notes of each of these modes in C you get the chords;

C Major (C – E – G)
D Minor (D – F – A)
E Minor (E – G –
F Major (F – A – C)
G Major (G – B – D)
A Minor (A – C – E)
B Half Diminished (B – D – F) flat 3[sup]rd[/sup] and flat 5[sup]th[/sup]

Try any combination of these chords say C Major for 4 bars then E Minor for 2 bars then A Minor for 2 bars. Try using the notes of the corresponding modes for your bassline / melody.

This is a simplification obviously, chords are not limited to 1[sup]st[/sup], 3[sup]rd[/sup] and 5[sup]th[/sup] you can have extensions by adding a 9[sup]th[/sup] or 11[sup]th[/sup] for example or substitute the 3[sup]rd[/sup] for a 4[sup]th [/sup]It will all fit within the same system though. Basically if you can play a major scale you can play it all. Just move the same shapes to start on any note you like and the system is the same for every key. I know this ignores melodic minor scales and key changes etc, but I think it’s a good introduction to how everything fits together.

There is obviously the element of rhythm to add to all this and how our instrument sits in the context of a band and other instruments, I don’t think you can really be taught this though… This is your style that will define your playing, it comes from your ideas and you alone.

Or you can have a guitarist write a riff that follows no theoretical pattern and play root notes underneath… Works for most! Some enjoy theory, others don’t… Whatever you feel comfortable with and ultimately whatever sounds good! Sounding good is what it’s all about and there are many different ways to get there.

Good Luck

Rob

[cloudburst]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1374240246' post='2146783']
thus the C Major and D Minor triads are related.
[/quote]
Given that C Major's relative minor is A Minor, and with D Minor being the relative minor of F Major, the above statement vexes me.

CB

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='cloudburst' timestamp='1374242153' post='2146814']
Given that C Major's relative minor is A Minor, and with D Minor being the relative minor of F Major, the above statement vexes me.

CB
[/quote]

Well A - C - E is 1st, 3rd, 5th of the Aeolian mode (relative minor) if you play the 1st, 3rd, 5th of a D Dorian D - F - A or a E Phrygian E - G - B you still have the flat 3rd so you have another two minor triads in the key of C.

Rob

*edited as I am a ignoramus who wrote the wrong notes for a D minor triad...

Edited July 19, 2013 by CamdenRob

[cloudburst]

[quote name='CamdenRob' timestamp='1374242553' post='2146819']
Well A - C - E is 1st, 3rd, 5th of the Aeolian mode (relative minor) if you play the 1st, 3rd, 5th of a D Dorian D - F - G or a E Phrygian E - G - B you still have the flat 3rd so you have another two minor triads in the key of C.

Rob
[/quote]
Ah okay - thought you were indicating that D minor was in some way more special in context of C major.

CB

PS: the triad of the Dorian mode on D is "D - F - A"...... get back to those pipes :-)

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='cloudburst' timestamp='1374243269' post='2146831']
Ah okay - thought you were indicating that D minor was in some way more special in context of C major.

CB

PS: the triad of the Dorian mode on D is "D - F - A"...... get back to those pipes :-)
[/quote]

I just read my post back and thought.. hang on a minute D - F - G that's not right

Your right I'll go back to my pipes...

Rob

[Coilte]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1374239876' post='2146779']
Theory is the same whether you're playing someone else's song or your own.
[/quote]

I agree. My point was that if you are playing strictly by ear, i.e. copying exactly what is being played in a song, you dont necessarily need to know theory, or for that matter, the actual notes you are playing.

[51m0n]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1374244209' post='2146849']
I agree. My point was that if you are playing strictly by ear, i.e. copying exactly what is being played in a song, you dont necessarily need to know theory, or for that matter, the actual notes you are playing.
[/quote]

But you wont know why it works, you wont be able to write your own stuff outside of a formula you have already heard. The neck is just a big dark mass of notes with a couple of preordained paths through it, everything else is a mystery in comparison.

In comparison a person with good theory, and more importantly even, a good grounding in the practical use of that theory (which starts with knowing your fretboard inside out, something I cant claim, there are still shadowy areas on mine where I rarely go!) can play basslines that move further around the neck, can make another persons bassline their own etc etc. Ultimately this is more rewarding than juyst regurgitating a list of positions on the neck in the (hopefully) right order, and something along the lines of the original rhythm.

Oh you can write 'by ear' which is great, but it will take you an age to find notes you can hear in your head. compared to someone who has the theory to hear the sounds in their head and know what key they are in, how they relate to each other, what harmony the imply, how to manipulate that harmony for desired effect.

Theory doesnt stop you being you, it just opens up some possibilites and lets you get places with less time spent on a diversion....

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='Coilte' timestamp='1374244209' post='2146849']
I agree. My point was that if you are playing strictly by ear, i.e. copying exactly what is being played in a song, you dont necessarily need to know theory, or for that matter, the actual notes you are playing.
[/quote]
As well as with so-called covers, that would be true if you're making it up yourself - no need for theory or knowing the notes, just play by ear.

The reason I point this out is that, in my experience (but yours may differ), people who play or copy merely by ear have a tendency to get it wrong or at least to copy inexactly.

[Coilte]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1374244684' post='2146858']
But you wont know why it works, you wont be able to write your own stuff outside of a formula you have already heard.



[/quote]

This is exactly the point some of us have being trying to get across to "iceonaboy" since early in this thread.

As far as I am concerned, you are preaching to the converted.

[Coilte]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1374244811' post='2146859']


The reason I point this out is that, in my experience (but yours may differ), people who play or copy merely by ear have a tendency to get it wrong or at least to copy inexactly.
[/quote]

I agree, plus using tabs, apart from being a crutch (another can of worms opened ), is often incorrect.

[uncle psychosis]

It always seems to me that there are lots of guitarists (and some bass players) who genuinely think that knowing some theory will somehow inhibit creativity. I think these people think that players that know theory are constantly thinking "right this is a Dm7 chord...so erm...right...what do the textbooks say I can play again?". The reality is that its not like that. Having a proper grasp of music theory is to music as spelling and grammar are to language. I don't conciously need to think about how to spell words, form sentences, or punctuate properly---it happens so quickly that its completely natural. Thats the end point of learning music theory---knowing what you're doing without thinking about it.

To the OP, don't get too bogged down in it. There's a lot of stuff to take in at once, so don't get too disheartened if you feel overwhelmed. I'd start with learning about the major scale and go from there.

[rk7]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1374270069' post='2147174']

To the OP, don't get too bogged down in it. There's a lot of stuff to take in at once, so don't get too disheartened if you feel overwhelmed. I'd start with learning about the major scale and go from there.
[/quote]

+1.

Although I think the OP left long ago and is happily practising his scales and learning from it.

RK

[Plampers]

Lol. I haven't left, just been reading with interest the debate.

I think your right though, I can't let myself get too overwhelmed, I have never played an instrument but I have seriously Fallen for the bass. I'm only using a borrowed one to see if I could enjoy it, but I am considering actually taking the plunge and buying one.

With the theory It's definitely going to take me a long while but I'll keeping reading and practicing and hopefully all will become clear:)

Again thanks for every ones input thus far, there has been some useful nuggets to absorb!!

[hollywoodrox]

major scale
Carolkaye.com
studybass.com

[Grangur]

[quote name='hollywoodrox' timestamp='1375130984' post='2157140']
major scale
Carolkaye.com
studybass.com
[/quote]
Here's another great place too - [url="http://four-strings-basslessons.blogspot.de/"]http://four-strings-basslessons.blogspot.de/[/url]