Jaco pastorius.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='merello' timestamp='1374222583' post='2146520']
It is always daft to have a pissing contest over how great someone is. Here is my opinion, and remember, you are all entitled to my opinion!

I was in a flat in Glasgow when, late at night, a channel put on live music. At that point, I only really listened to The Stranglers and Genesis and had started playing bass in a band for a laugh. The height of bass was JJ and Foxton with their great, driving, thunderous bottom lines that drove songs on.

It was Shadows and Light by Joni Mitchell. Not really my scene but as the evening progressed, I drifted closer and closer to the telly and further from the beer. I was hypnotised by the tic-a-tac and low smears. The lack of slavish root note playing and the way that everything served to make the song better enthralled me. This was the early to mid eighties and there was no easy way off finding out who he was. Eventually I ordered a Japanese import of the record at great cost. I think an album was about £4 and this was £16!

Whatever anyone thinks about him, he is one of the few musicians ever to sear himself on my life from one performance.
[/quote]
I do love Shadows and Light.

[cloudburst]

[quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1374192104' post='2146411']
No I wasn't. Ask a cross section of joe public to name a bass player and I'm pretty sure he'd be way down the list after, for example, Paul McCartney, Sting, Phil Linnot, Chris Wolstenholme, and probably after John Entwhistle as well. Most people have never heard of him.
[/quote]
I've played bass for 39 years and had never heard of Chris Wolstenholme prior to this post. "Who's heard of who" may indicate a degree of celebrity, but doesn't say anything about bass playing ability.

CB

[molan]

If you asked a genuine cross section of the public to name a bass player they are more likely to come up with the name of a dance act than anyone who actually plays a bass guitar.

To a lot of people 'bass' is simply about a low thump (often generated by a drum machine or a synth).

On the Jaco front - I'm in the 'appreciate him as a musician and innovator but find it hard to listen to much of his music' camp

Love the stuff with Joni Mitchell though - in fact, as I'm writing this poolside in sunny Malta, I think that may just have to be the next music on the iPod

Surprised no-one has mentioned Jamerson yet - add him alongside Jaco and you've covered most of the basses in terms of groundbreaking playing and innovation. . .

[molan]

[quote name='cloudburst' timestamp='1374222775' post='2146523']

I've played bass for 39 years and had never heard of Chris Wolstenholme prior to this post. "Who's heard of who" may indicate a degree of celebrity, but doesn't say anything about bass playing ability.

CB
[/quote]

All I'd ever heard about Chris Wolstenholme prior to visiting BC were rumours that he didn't actually play much on any of the recorded albums and everything was covered by session guys!

[ras52]

This is fascinating - I never knew that South African dude that shot his girlfriend was a bass player.

[Count Bassy]

[quote name='cloudburst' timestamp='1374222775' post='2146523']
I've played bass for 39 years and had never heard of Chris Wolstenholme prior to this post. "Who's heard of who" may indicate a degree of celebrity, but doesn't say anything about bass playing ability.

CB
[/quote]

Well, I thought whether to include him or not. To be honest I was struggling to think of any bassists that Joe public might know. and was scraping the barrel at that point.
As someone mentioned, - No Mark King in the list, so let's take Wolstenholme out and put Mark King in ...... and add Suzi Quattro of course!

And I totally agree with your comment on celebrity and talent, but in this "subthread" the discussion was about how many people have heard of Jaco (very few) rather than how good or influential he was.

[Count Bassy]

Just to make it clear, I am not questioning Jaco's talent or influence (in certain genres at least), and whether I like what he did or not is inconsequential. It's just the perceived attitude ( and I know that that no-one here has actually said this as such) that he can never be 'bettered' (whatever that means) which leaves me puzzled, and strangely saddened.

He may be have been very good and influential, but he was a step on the road of bass playing - not the end of the journey.

[cloudburst]

[quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1374223540' post='2146537']
Well, I thought whether to include him or not. To be honest I was struggling to think of any bassists that Joe public might know. and was scraping the barrel at that point.
As someone mentioned, - No Mark King in the list, so let's take Wolstenholme out and put Mark King in ...... and add Suzi Quattro of course!

And I totally agree with your comment on celebrity and talent, but in this "subthread" the discussion was about how many people have heard of Jaco (very few) rather than how good or influential he was.
[/quote]
I must remember to observe sub-threads on this forum - I always make the mistake of trying to revert to the OP.

Suzi Quatro had crossed my mind when I was thinking about the celebrity vs ability issue :-) I prefer her songs and her image to her playing ability.

Things aren't always as they seem though - I got introduced to Jaco in my early teens as a result of my non bass playing friends advising me (one day when we were playing cowboys and indians) "you're a bassist - you have to listen to Jaco Pastorius, he's the best bass player in the world*".

*this was one of those "absolute truths" we used to enjoy as kids.

CB

Edited July 19, 2013 by cloudburst

[toneknob]

[quote name='Hobbayne' timestamp='1374168379' post='2146091']
I have tried to listen to his playing objectively, but its just not my thing, just a bundle of notes really
[/quote]

Listen to [i]any[/i] music objectively and it's just a bundle of notes.

[4000]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1374221338' post='2146500']
Most people have no idea what a bassist is ... and why on earth should they?
[/quote]

Indeed.

[4000]

[quote name='Count Bassy' timestamp='1374224236' post='2146545']
Just to make it clear, I am not questioning Jaco's talent or influence (in certain genres at least), and whether I like what he did or not is inconsequential. It's just the perceived attitude ( and I know that that no-one here has actually said this as such) that he can never be 'bettered' (whatever that means) which leaves me puzzled, and strangely saddened.

He may be have been very good and influential, but he was a step on the road of bass playing - not the end of the journey.
[/quote]

+1. And this goes for all the greats so far, not just Jaco.

Edited July 19, 2013 by 4000

[BassBus]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1374179577' post='2146251']
Well , the thing is that Jaco and the other artists you mention were radical departures within their given discipline , and changed their medium forever . It is possible for all kinds of fancy Dan bass players to come along with amazing chops and technique , but so far most have struggled to make the impact that Jaco did . I wouldn't put Jaco in the same bracket as Mozart or Shakespear for various reasons ( I could explain why , if you like ) , but in his own modest way he was a genius of sorts , but not because of his technique . His gift was that he thought about and interpreted music differently to other people , and happened to do so via the medium of the bass guitar . Like just about every genius you can think of , Jaco was unconventional , a radical , and unlike anything that had come before him on the bass guitar . He wasn't alone in that by any means - there were other fantastically gifted players of that era - but at his best he was brilliant in his own right . He was versatile too , despite having such a distinctive signature style . He was a World- class jazz bassist and accomplished soloist , but his work as an accompanist in various genres is equally accomplished and shows great maturity and sensitivity to the overall musical picture rather than just his own role in it . Regardless of your own personal taste ( which you are fully entitled to , I hasten to add) Jaco was the real deal , the complete package . I am not one of Jaco's slavish followers by any means , and I couldn't even say he was the player I myself have enjoyed or or directly tried to emulate the most , but his stature on the instrument is undeniable .
[/quote]

Why has this thread gone on past this post? [size=4] [/size]

[leroydiamond]

[quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1374231307' post='2146650']
Why has this thread gone on past this post?
[/quote]
+1

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1374231307' post='2146650']
Why has this thread gone on past this post?
[/quote]
One reason is that you and several other people have responded to that very post.

A second reason is there are other things to say.

[toneknob]

[quote name='BassBus' timestamp='1374231307' post='2146650']
Why has this thread gone on past this post?
[/quote]

I'm still trying to process "...in his own modest way..."

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='toneknob' timestamp='1374236213' post='2146725']
I'm still trying to process "...in his own modest way..."
[/quote]
Yes that was strange, it must be a joke.

Edited July 19, 2013 by EssentialTension

[cloudburst]

A third reason is that, as per site URL, we are having a chat.

CB

[BetaFunk]

I heard Jaco before i'd ever even picked up a bass or had any desire to do so. I bought the Little Beaver 'I Can Dig It Baby' 45 on it's release in 1974 and had no idea who the bass player was. The next year he cropped up playing acoustic bass guitar on an Ira Sullivan LP (listed as Joco) then on Pat Metheny's 'Bright Size Life' LP both bought by me on their release. It wasn't long after that he joined Weather Report and gained much wider notice. If you weren't around at the time it's probably hard to understand the impact he had and it probably wasn't until the 80s and maybe after his death that his fame seemed to increase. A friend of mine was teaching bass around 1990 and told me once 'everyone wants to learn to play like Jaco'. It was unheard of for anyone who was thought of as a jazz musician to has such wide appeal and impact. His influence on bassists was nothing short of amazing.

[Dingus]

[quote name='toneknob' timestamp='1374236213' post='2146725']
I'm still trying to process "...in his own modest way..."
[/quote]

The term "genius " is bandied about a bit too liberally nowadays , and it's important to keep a sense of perspective . Jaco was a genius for sure , but he had a very specific and relatively narrow talent , most specifically for playing the bass guitar , although I would of course also acknowledge him as a composer and bandleader . I describe Jaco as a "modest " genius because , in the overall scheme of things , in relation to some other musical geniuses , his gift was limited . It could be argued that people like Bach , Mozart and Beethoven had a musical gift which eclipsed that of extraordinary instrumentalists like Jaco because they were able to write for several instruments with the same level of skill , dexterity and maturity that Jaco showed on only one . Imagine having the ability to think for all the instruments in an orchestra as if you played each one like Jaco or Jamerson played the bass and to be able to create an overall musical soundscape in your head without the aid of recording or any of the technology that we take for granted , or in some cases without ever hearing the music being performed . That is what the great composers did , and I'm sure that Jaco himself would not dream of putting himself in the same bracket as them .

Edited July 19, 2013 by Dingus

[lojo]

I've read stuff on this site which would suggest if Jaco had the first clue about bass playing he wouldn't have used a fender, so I don't rate him at all.

Edited July 19, 2013 by lojo

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1374239014' post='2146757']
... If you weren't around at the time it's probably hard to understand the impact ...
[/quote]
I was around at the time and my experience of Jaco was not as you describe.

[White Cloud]

[quote name='EssentialTension' timestamp='1374241963' post='2146809']
I was around at the time and my experience of Jaco was not as you describe.
[/quote]
It is unreasonable & wholly unrealistic to expect everyone's experience of Jaco to be the same.

[EssentialTension]

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1374245553' post='2146880']
It is unreasonable & wholly unrealistic to expect everyone's experience of Jaco to be the same.
[/quote]
Yes, that's right.

[steve-bbb]

[quote name='White Cloud' timestamp='1374245553' post='2146880']
It is unreasonable & wholly unrealistic to expect everyone's experience of Jaco to be the same.
[/quote]

im going to have a check and see what they saying on talkbass about jaco

[Lord Sausage]

I think if you genuinely understand and love music on all levels i.e emotion, musicology, theory, history, harmony, orchestration, composition etc etc. Then you have to respect Jaco, his music and playing etc. To say you don't like him because he uses Fender is ridiculous, and to say it sounds like a bundle of notes is ignorance.