PA Minefield ?

[njr911]

I'm a Bass player, why I got lumbared with this i'll never know.

We are currently using a old and unrelaible Peavey 100watt head and 2 passive Carlsbo spreaker (12" i think) It looks terrible, sounds worse with cutting out and feedback issues.

It's currently only used for the vocals and at the moment just in small pub gigs playing rock and indie covers.

From talking to a few bands they are always suggesting we get a much bigger powered PA. Monitors would be a help I think.

So what to get ?

Couple of active speakers ? What wattage ? Size ?
16 Channel mixer ?
Small wedge minitors ?

As I said, we're only doing pub gigs so don't make any money other than expenses so cost is important (ie I'll get stuck with the bill)

Current thinking is s/h Behringer stuff ?

Any thoughts or guidence would be greatly appreciated.

Ta
Neil

[mike257]

Because the bass player always gets lumbered with the stuff that requires a bit of nous to sort out!

Got an idea what your budget is? How much are you looking to put through the PA? If you're just wanting to get the vocals across more clearly than your current rig, you'll get away with something smaller but if you're wanting to put drums/bass through then you'll want subwoofers as well as tops. Also need to budget for the necessary mics, cables and stands etc, which adds up really quickly and will cost more than you're expecting!

Lots of people knock the Behringer stuff but if you're looking for cheap and cheerful it'll do the job for you. Plenty bands/venues out there using their stuff.

[mike257]

Also, if feedback is an issue now, better gear won't make it disappear, but it'll hopefully give you more chance of dealing with it effectively. Where are your mics in relation to your speakers? Has your PA got a basic graphic EQ on board?

[flyfisher]

[quote name='njr911' timestamp='1374577423' post='2150286']
I'm a Bass player, why I got lumbared with this i'll never know.
[/quote]

I know the feeling. Why is it that singers seem to think they just need to turn up with a mic and plug it into a PA provided and set-up by someone else?

I've got a whole bunch of PA gear including a 16ch desk, snake, monitors, sub, etc but I probably only use it all once or twice a year because of all the time and effort to lug it around and set it all up. Plus, it's really only practical if there's a sound guy to work it all while the band plays.

For most gigs we just use a vocal-only PA based on a small Yamaha EMX212s powered mixer. If we need a bit more oomph we add a couple of Mackie SRM450s for the PA speakers and use the Yamaha speakers as monitors.

But, really, the PA should be the responsibility of the singers!

[Dad3353]

[quote name='njr911' timestamp='1374577423' post='2150286']
I'm a Bass player, why I got lumbared with this i'll never know...

...Any thoughts or guidence would be greatly appreciated...[/quote]

Why..? See answers above.

Guidance..? To much to say with too little info, but for a trouble-free, simple installation for pub vocals, the Yamaha StagePass is a nice contender. Self-contained, so all packs away neatly, easy to operate, and enough volume and presence for pub gigs (vocal only...). I have no idea as to the second-hand availability or pricing, but might be worth a look..?
There are many other options, but you'd have to give an idea of budget, at least, to dig further. I've always found Peavey to be very good, too, despite your current PA head.
Just my tuppence-worth; hope this helps...

Edited July 23, 2013 by Dad3353

[njr911]

Our current head has got nothing. Feedback is due to positioning of mics I think and just a general lack of knowledge and experience.

I have stands and long cables so OK with those. Singers can sort their own mics and cables.

Budget as cheep as possible.

£500 ideally s/h

[Norm]

For a start buy the Peavey mixeramp I've got up in the "other musical equip" market place! ;-) plug plug.
Its 9 channel 500w per side into 4 ohm cabs.
Then pick up a pair of passive 4 ohm cabs from the market place here or t'bay, Peavey, yamaha, Mackie etc decent makes but not too much s/h.
That would get you started & then add monitors when you can afford.
We used it for vox only Indie covers in pubs, perfect for a small band.
Also you should be getting a few quid playing pubs, £100-£200 per down my way. If you're not you should be!
Cheers,
Norm

[Norris]

I'd suggest getting some powered PA cabs - Mackie thumps or SRMs are a little more expensive than Behringers, but worth checking out. Then you can use a relatively cheap mixer with as many inputs / monitor outs as you need.

Edit: And if you're not making enough money to replace/upgrade equipment then you're not charging enough

Edited July 23, 2013 by Norris

[njr911]

[quote name='Norm' timestamp='1374578571' post='2150315']
For a start buy the Peavey mixeramp I've got up in the "other musical equip" market place! ;-) plug plug.
Its 9 channel 500w per side into 4 ohm cabs.
Then pick up a pair of passive 4 ohm cabs from the market place here or t'bay, Peavey, yamaha, Mackie etc decent makes but not too much s/h.
That would get you started & then add monitors when you can afford.
We used it for vox only Indie covers in pubs, perfect for a small band.
Also you should be getting a few quid playing pubs, £100-£200 per down my way. If you're not you should be!
Cheers,
Norm
[/quote]

Thanks for the suggestions! Why passive and not active ?

[flyfisher]

[quote name='mike257' timestamp='1374578017' post='2150297']
Also need to budget for the necessary mics, cables and stands etc, which adds up really quickly and will cost more than you're expecting!
[/quote]

Ain't that the truth!

Once you 'take on' the PA you seem to become the go-to guy for anything the band needs - spare cables, batteries, gaffer tape, anything and everything. I sometimes think I should keep a pack of nappies handy.

[njr911]

[quote name='Norris' timestamp='1374578623' post='2150319']
I'd suggest getting some powered PA cabs - Mackie thumps or SRMs are a little more expensive than Behringers, but worth checking out. Then you can use a relatively cheap mixer with as many inputs / monitor outs as you need.

Edit: And if you're not making enough money to replace/upgrade equipment then you're not charging enough
[/quote]

Does the mixer care if the speakers are powered or passive ?

As you can see, I know nothing!

[Norris]

[quote name='njr911' timestamp='1374578779' post='2150325']
Does the mixer care if the speakers are powered or passive ?

As you can see, I know nothing!
[/quote]
Powered PA cabs take a line level signal - in other words no need to lug a huge great heavy amplifier around (or the additional weight of a powered desk)

[chris_b]

I'd look at EV first, then RCF, then Peavey. IMO I'd leave Behringer on the shelf.


It might seem like a great idea to cut out humping power amps about until you discover that if you get powered speakers you've gone and increased the weight of the already heaviest bit of kit.

Unless you can find powered speakers with digital amps stick to non powered speakers.

[Les]

It's a mine field. You need to decide if your just going to have a decent vocal PA or something you can use for bass, kick drum etc, and I think you'll struggle for that on your 500 squid budget.

A mate of mine is selling her spare PA, it would be good for vocals, much stronger than the one you've got. It comprises

[color=#37404E]Carver 1250 amp[/color]
[color=#37404E]jbl eons 15"[/color]
[color=#37404E]studiomaster spiritfolio [14/2] mixer[/color]
[color=#37404E]Alesis midiverb 4
Yam Graphic eq
EMS gig box [10u]..[/color][color=#37404E]That would be a decent vocal PA, she's looking for 700 for that, not sure if that's about right or not to be honest, but it gives you an idea.[/color]


[color=#37404E]Les[/color]

[funkgod]

[quote name='njr911' timestamp='1374577423' post='2150286']
I'm a Bass player, why I got lumbared with this i'll never know.

We are currently using a old and unrelaible Peavey 100watt head and 2 passive Carlsbo spreaker (12" i think) It looks terrible, sounds worse with cutting out and feedback issues.

It's currently only used for the vocals and at the moment just in small pub gigs playing rock and indie covers.

From talking to a few bands they are always suggesting we get a much bigger powered PA. Monitors would be a help I think.

So what to get ?

Couple of active speakers ? What wattage ? Size ?
16 Channel mixer ?
Small wedge minitors ?

As I said, we're only doing pub gigs so don't make any money other than expenses so cost is important (ie I'll get stuck with the bill)

Current thinking is s/h Behringer stuff ?

Any thoughts or guidence would be greatly appreciated.

Ta
Neil
[/quote]

Neil keep your eyes on something like these,,
[url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Wharfedale-EVP-X15P-Active-Speakers-PAIR-MINT-CONDITION-STANDS-CABLES-/190873770461?pt=UK_Sound_Vision_Speakers_Monitor&hash=item2c70f699dd"]http://www.ebay.co.u...=item2c70f699dd[/url]

i do pa hire and i use the the evp 15 400w powered monitors and they sound great i dont get any feed back
from them, i have 5 of them 2 12" 300w powered ones. im very happy with them and so are the people who use them.
and cheap enough to replace if needed quick.
My main FOH pa is all HK actor, i dont plan on changing any of it for a good few years yet.
if these are as good as the monitors then they will give you a good sound for small gigs for not much money.
while you are doing the gigs save and get a pair of bins to add for bigger gigs.

or as NORRIS said, if you have a bit more to spend then the Mackie thumps or SRM are a good step up again.
and also as LES says the JBL are also good, its all down to £, ask the rest of the band to chip in
ESP the singer !!
If they dont want to help with costs then treat the pa as an active member of the band and it gets an equal cut,

Edited July 23, 2013 by funkgod

[flyfisher]

[quote name='funkgod' timestamp='1374580442' post='2150368']
i do pa hire and i use the the evp 15 400w powered monitors and they sound great i dont get any feed back
from them, i have 5 of them 2 12" 300w powered ones. im very happy with them and so are the people who use them.
and cheap enough to replace if needed quick.
[/quote]

I recently bought a pair of these. I'm very pleased with them but the speaker stands that I use for my Mackie SRM450s don't fit them - the poles are too large in diameter.

I thought the 'top hat' sockets on PA speakers were all the same size, but obviously not. The Wharfdale ones also seem to he hexagonal. Do I need a special sized speaker pole for these or are there adapters available?

Edited July 23, 2013 by flyfisher

[JTUK]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1374579512' post='2150342']
I'd look at EV first, then RCF, then Peavey. IMO I'd leave Behringer on the shelf.


It might seem like a great idea to cut out humping power amps about until you discover that if you get powered speakers you've gone and increased the weight of the already heaviest bit of kit.

Unless you can find powered speakers with digital amps stick to non powered speakers.
[/quote]

Agree with EV.... and it can be found quite cheaply second hand.
RCF is good as well but both names rely on their old laurels, IMO.. but better than the PV type stuff.
PV is ok, but no discerning band will use it as being robust and bombproof..which it is..is not what you should be listening for, IMO.
Bare in mind that most vox P.A's are an afterthought in bands, when it really REALLY should be the whole focal point of the band.
No liine-up can rescue poor vox,

I don't think it reasonable for you to take this on UNLESS you get help from the others.
Even if you take on the review, you want agreement and help on who carries it... sets it up and breaks it down.
If you can't get help on that, then you don't have a band...you just have guys doing it for themselves.

Tell the band they need to commit a £1000 from gig money....for a Vox only P.A.

It doesn't matter if you go active or passive...the weight will be there at some point.

Assuming you have decent mics.. and SM58's are a starter, not the end result, IMO..
look at 12" RCF actives and and an 8 channel desk.
Monitors..?? Wharfdale do 15" actives that are ok.
The Mackie 150 mini wedges are ok as well... but Behringer do their own type of version.... very directional
but ok.

You may be able to pick up some Mackie tops but they are as low as you should go in terms of audible quality.

If you want...go to a P.A shop which have a large range of cabs in their own demo room and A/B some...you will soon hear what the difference is and what you get for your money

[Norm]

[quote name='njr911' timestamp='1374578685' post='2150321']


Thanks for the suggestions! Why passive and not active ?
[/quote]

By passive I meant non powered speakers ie just speakers in a box no amp. Maybe I'm getting mixed up? I equated active with powered?
We had the amp in the mixer not the speakers.
I've also used Mackie kit with a mixer & powered speakers, very good kit too.
Either way round the kit with the amp is going to be heavy!
The Peavey stuff is workhorse kit, nowt fancy but tough & relatively cheap & a good place to start IMHO.
I take it you have mics, stands, leads etc already so roughly £280 for a s/h mixeramp (mine inclds 3 speakon speaker leads!), £280ish for a s/h pair of speakers & £150 for a s/h powered wedge plus £200 for ancillaries, speaker stands, extra leads (dont forget spare!) That comes to £910 so say a grand & that will get you a pub gig ready system. Split between band members shouldn't be too painful.
All the best,
Norm

[casapete]

Agree with most of the above. However, if you keep an eye on local press/Gumtree/Ebay etc you can maybe pick up a perfectly usable Peavey/Yamaha top box style mixer amplifier that will have 6/8 channels and maybe pump out 400 to 600watts a side for less than £200 if you're lucky. Combined with a s/h pair of say Peavey HiSys 2 speakers, you should get a working system for circa £400. Add a s/h powered monitor for around £80 and some leads it will all add up to only a shade over £500. Plus, if/when you want to upgrade you should n't lose that much on your outlay.

Big Deal on Eastgate in Leeds sometimes have good bits of PA kit.

Edited July 23, 2013 by casapete

[Lozz196]

Behringer gear is fine, my old band had a Behringer PA/speakers/mics etc, worked as well as any PA I`ve used in any band.

Re monitors - better to get as good as possible, no point having them if you can`t turn up without constant feedback. An area where I wouldn`t cost-cut.

[funkgod]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1374582137' post='2150424']
I recently bought a pair of these. I'm very pleased with them but the speaker stands that I use for my Mackie SRM450s don't fit them - the poles are too large in diameter.

I thought the 'top hat' sockets on PA speakers were all the same size, but obviously not. The Wharfdale ones also seem to he hexagonal. Do I need a special sized speaker pole for these or are there adapters available?
[/quote]

i did not know this, as all my wharfdales are floor monitors they dont have top hats.
strange as you say that they should be a different size, i know you can get tophats on ebay to replace
them, cus i had a pair of opus tops that had smaller di tophat and so had to replace them
to fit my poles.

[flyfisher]

Good thinking about replacing the tophats in the cabs - should've thought of that myself instead of focusing on the stands!

[barkin]

I use a Yamaha EMX512 powered mixer on small gigs - pubs, small-ish halls etc - with one of its power amps feeding the FOH speakers, and the other driving a couple of wedge monitors.

The Yamaha EMX stuff is great IMO - very usable effects (touch of reverb...), dead easy/quick to set up, and sounds great. Got mine from Gumtree for 200 quid.

FOH speakers are also Yamaha - 100 quid from ebay, can't recall the model. (I've never used a Yamaha product that's disappointed)

Monitors also came cheap from ebay - intended only as a stopgap, but they sound good enough that I've not yet felt the need to replace 'em. All speakers are 8 Ohm - that way, I can run 2 on each of the EMX's outputs.

Cheap 'n' chearful, but it really does sound better than OK.

[barkin]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1374582137' post='2150424']

I thought the 'top hat' sockets on PA speakers were all the same size, but obviously not.
[/quote]

Nope.

Bluearan do various top hats and adaptors, in different lengths & diameters.

[bonzodog]

+1 on the Yamahas Stagepas but go for the 600i which is the largest at 380W per side. Its a powered 6 channel mixer with passive 10" speakers. All packs away into a small unit and cost £600 new. We use it as a vocal PA in smaller/medium gigs and it has feedback eliminator, vocal FX and an output to connect an active sub. If we do larger venues we just use a local hire company and pay £60 for a 1k rig and then use the stagepas system as monitors.