MarkBass rig volume question

[alhbass]

I use a MarkBass rig of 2x NY604 cabs, driven by a 500w LMK head. Generally I'm very happy with this set up - I like the sound, it's very portable, and it's more than adequate for the vast majority of the gigs I get to play.

However, I've just got home from playing at a festival, where for the first time I found I really couldn't hear myself on the large, open air stage, unless I went and stood right in front of the rig.

I dont have the money (or space) for a whole new rig that would handle these larger situations better (and I'd still want to keep my current one for most gigs), but was wondering whether I would get more volume by either keeping the same cabs but driving them with an 800w head instead of the 500w one, or keeping the 500w head but using bigger cabs (a 410 plus 115 perhaps)?

I'd be very grateful for your help....

Thanks

[franzbassist]

The problem was an open air stage. Bass just disappears in such situations.

If you like the setup and it works for the vast majority of gigs I wouldn't change a thing.

[chris_b]

Did you go through the PA? You should have.

You loose the bass on most open air gigs.

How many open air gigs do you do? I wouldn't change anything, other than DIing through the PA next time.

[JTUK]

The size of stage is important to what sound you can get back off it.
This is why people use 810's as it fills their space well...but is kind to the other areas and mic placements..or rather kinder.

I have a stage rig but whether I can really justify the cost is something else.... and it runs out of steam
on anything larger than a 30ft wide stage witha loud pumping band
This is where you need a monitor mixer and wedges and even side fills.. and need to know what rigs you are playing with.

The notion that you can use a little rig and/or combo is laughable..althu I understand why ppl want to try.

You might have to stand on top of it, but it will be missing everywhere else... and how can you play to other ppl if that happens..??
The problem here is how much monitoring do you have in total..what you can put thru it..and what you can achieve via the allotted soundcheck..

This is why you might be thinking at least I can take care of my end and have a decent sized (loud) rig.

If a P.A doesn't allow a min of 4 mixes and full band monitoring, then it isn't a proper P.A fit for purpose, IMO/IME.

Edited July 24, 2013 by JTUK

[Lozz196]

Having a separate set of cabs for the off-chance of an outdoor gig is a big expense, if you can afford it, do it if these gigs are likely. Personally I`d have two 410s. More air being pushed gives you a better chance of hearing yourself, plus if having to push hard, you may over-power a 115 to the point where you`re getting no benefit from it. But as others have said, if doing an outdoor festival, really the PA/monitors should be doing this job as well, it should be two-ended, your rig provides your back-line sound, the monitors provide the whole band.

[Prime_BASS]

As long as the audience heard out front through the PA then I wouldn't worry about it.

I never found my 500 watt Markbass heads lacking in power through a load of different cabs.

It bugs when people take pity on people who choose to use small lightweight gear. I've always gigged with that kind of stuff and even on one or two occasions where we had no PA support found that it's more than adequate.

There is even a live vid of my band where most of te bass sound is coming from or of those cheap 210 ampeg cabs and that's a 200w cab that is never going to break anyone's ear drums, and you can hear it pretty clearly all the way to the front of he stage.

[Phil Starr]

In an open arena bass radiates in every direction evenly. Normally it radiates forwards only because the rear radiation is reflected off the rear wall. You will also get some reinforcement from floor, ceiling and any nearby side walls. Speakers are directional at high frequencies so this is less of an issue for guitarists.

You are going to lose about 6dB depending upon the exact conditions which means going from 500W to something like 2000W, so 800W isn't going to fix the problem. You reach a point where covering the distances, and reproducing your normal experience on stage from a back line amp isn't really practicable.

If you are playing outdoors it is much more sensible to let the PA do the lifting and to use better on stage monitoring.

[alhbass]

Thanks for your comments guys. For the record, I was DI'd through the PA, so front of house sound was no problem at all (as a recording of the gig from the crowd shows) - it was just a question about hearing myself. This too was fine, as long as I was reasonably close to my stack (which I was during the soundcheck). It was just that once I started looning around the stage in the heat of the gig that I found I could barely hear myself.

We dont get to play stages like this often, but when we do I want to be able to enjoy the experience and be able to hear myself properly. Think I'll just have to keep an eye out for suitable cabs coming up for sale as and when I can afford...and make a bit more space in the garage!

[xgsjx]

I'd consider a couple of good 2x10 or 2x12 cabs for the bigger venues. Could probably replace your 604s with them.

[Japhet]

If you're Di'ing into the PA I'd consider lifting your cab up to improve what you can hea ras it won't affect front of house sound.

[chris_b]

[size=3]If you were DI'ed then the monitoring was inadequate.[/size]
[size=3] [/size]
[size=3]Again that's the PA company’s job to give you a good stage level.[/size]
[size=3] [/size]
[size=3]If you're going to buy a cab to cover these situations get an Ampeg 810. This is what they are for.[/size]
[size=3] [/size]
[size=3]They are reasonably cheap (I think there was one here for £350 a few months ago) but, while they'll go some way to fixing your problem, they still won't completely cover for a bad monitor mix.[/size]

[JTUK]

[quote name='alhbass' timestamp='1374753989' post='2152779']
Thanks for your comments guys. For the record, I was DI'd through the PA, so front of house sound was no problem at all (as a recording of the gig from the crowd shows) - it was just a question about hearing myself. This too was fine, as long as I was reasonably close to my stack (which I was during the soundcheck). It was just that once I started looning around the stage in the heat of the gig that I found I could barely hear myself.

We dont get to play stages like this often, but when we do I want to be able to enjoy the experience and be able to hear myself properly. Think I'll just have to keep an eye out for suitable cabs coming up for sale as and when I can afford...and make a bit more space in the garage!
[/quote]

If you have no full range monitoring, then chances are the drums can't hear you..and the gtr 20 plus ft away will certainly not be able to .. or any other players.
The upshot of this is that you can't play together..or will find it very hard. You might think you are rehearsed enough to get through it...but are these the sort of gigs you want to just get away with it..???
Chances are they are amongst your best gigs of the year and you are going with a chancer of a sound..??
Drums on a 30 plus ft stage HAVE to go thru the monitors as you don't want to knacker the drummer halfway thru the set
as he is having to smash hell out of his kit..???

To be able to play well, you need to be able to hear what everyone is doing... so you need a good stage sound, and it helps if it is lively and punchy and a decent volume.
This is why small cabs don't work.
If someone goes on stage with a small cab, you either will have full range monitoring and therefore the amp/cab merely promotes a signal or you are very quiet on stage.

People have rigs for a purpose...and they have found out what works, where.

You tend to see gtr 412's and Bass 810's on decent sized stages for a reason.
Of course, some of it is showy and excessive, but you need the sound covered.

If your sound on stage is weedy... well, lets just say that is not a good start, IMO/IME..

[stingrayPete1977]

Did an outdoor stage last week with my 1x12, no problems at all, big stage but the drummer and guitarist could hear me fine saved me lugging the 2x12 across a field, didnt even ask for any bass in my monitor even though they had a very tasty pa set up.

Edited July 25, 2013 by stingrayPete1977

[JTUK]

I did a stage with a 750w amp and whilst I was ok, the drums were weedy...
Killed the gig....IMO

Out front, it sounded fine, they say, but the performance suffered because of the on stage sound.
We go for a tight punchy sound and some drums sound better through the volume than others...( individual tune)

We wont get caught like that again and do a 15-20min turnaround.
I think the monitors might have been ok...and man enough but they never got them right through out our set

Edited July 25, 2013 by JTUK

[TheRev]

Sounds like a monitoring problem.
If you're used to setting up your sound for pubs/music venues, transferring that sound to festival stages can be a bit of a nightmare - this is something that I'm still working on....

It sounds like you like to use the whole of the stage during the gig, so when you soundcheck, you'll need to pace across the stage and let the sound guy know where you need the bass in the monitors to buffer the levels coming from your rig. I'm surprised that the rest of the band didn't ask for more bass in the monitors, if you really were inaudible on the side of the stage opposite your rig.

If you're not lucky enough to be able to get a soundcheck, which is often the case at festivals, then you either have to sacrifice your stage presence and stay close to your amp to be able to hear yourself, or, you trust that the sound is good out front and your band is tight enough and can cope with your bass playing potentially not being as in the pocket as it could be while you go walkabout.

I don't think there's a bass cab that will fill any given stage without monitoring, so chasing that is probably a waste of time and money. As for getting a good monitor all across the stage.... well, there's a reason why the bands that headline Glastonbury get 40 minutes and 30 stage crew to sort them out.

[Telebass]

All good advice.
One worry - why do you keep your gear in the garage?

[alexclaber]

It's a volume displacement game really - all the power in the world won't do you any good if your cabs can't move the air and that requires the product of total cone area and excursion being as high as possible. You certainly had more than enough power to reach the volume displacement limits of your rig.

I wouldn't go changing anything though - just stand close to your rig on the infrequent occasions that you play such big stages! If there are decent monitors (particularly the large side-fill ones you need deafening rock drummers' to their hearts' delights) try to get some of your bass sound through them to fill out your sound on stage (as long as the rest of the band are happy with that).

[JTUK]

[quote name='TheRev' timestamp='1374792216' post='2153435']
Sounds like a monitoring problem.
If you're used to setting up your sound for pubs/music venues, transferring that sound to festival stages can be a bit of a nightmare - this is something that I'm still working on....

It sounds like you like to use the whole of the stage during the gig, so when you soundcheck, you'll need to pace across the stage and let the sound guy know where you need the bass in the monitors to buffer the levels coming from your rig. I'm surprised that the rest of the band didn't ask for more bass in the monitors, if you really were inaudible on the side of the stage opposite your rig.

If you're not lucky enough to be able to get a soundcheck, which is often the case at festivals, then you either have to sacrifice your stage presence and stay close to your amp to be able to hear yourself, or, you trust that the sound is good out front and your band is tight enough and can cope with your bass playing potentially not being as in the pocket as it could be while you go walkabout.

I don't think there's a bass cab that will fill any given stage without monitoring, so chasing that is probably a waste of time and money. As for getting a good monitor all across the stage.... well, there's a reason why the bands that headline Glastonbury get 40 minutes and 30 stage crew to sort them out.
[/quote]

You'd also have pre-production meetings to sort out all the kit you want, the stage set-up on the stage size.
Min stage sizes...or you may build/bring your own...and that is before you get to synching the light show...
it goes on and on.. but that is why you need to know what your kit can do and on what stage..and what help you will get and ...on and on it goes again

The last thing you want to be involved in is.... 15 min turnarounds..

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1374857052' post='2154167']

The last thing you want to be involved in is.... 15 min turnarounds..
[/quote]

Unless like some of us you are happy to entertain an audience with less than the perfect setup at every gig you ever do, then you can just stand a bit nearer your amp and rock out, hopefully the crowd will get up and dance and all will be well in the world for the 40 mins you play for

[chris_b]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1374857052' post='2154167']
....The last thing you want to be involved in is.... 15 min turnarounds....
[/quote]

15 mins?

Sheer luxury.

[JTUK]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1374861383' post='2154244']
Unless like some of us you are happy to entertain an audience with less than the perfect setup at every gig you ever do, then you can just stand a bit nearer your amp and rock out, hopefully the crowd will get up and dance and all will be well in the world for the 40 mins you play for
[/quote]

Yup... gigs I'd generally avoid.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1374875210' post='2154459']
15 mins?

Sheer luxury.
[/quote]
The last one we did was an outdoor in a field thing with a smaller tent for duos and stuff to entertain during the change overs, we were the first act on the big stage so had plenty of time to set up but could not sound check as there was a guy playing to backing tracks in the tent opposite, in the end we just started playing the first number (a Bruno Mars cover I think with a reasonable instrumental intro), sounded fine.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1374881357' post='2154521']
Yup... gigs I'd generally avoid.
[/quote]

[roonjuice]

In ear monitors.