sheet music....is it a conspiracy?....closed shop practice?..why not make it easier to read

[iconic]

As a theory and reading nooobie I cant help thinking the way music is transcribed could be so much easier by the simple addition of two things at the start of a piece....sort of this is generally the gist of whats coming next.


1. The key....yes i know there are sharps and flats at the start....but that doesnt tell me the key....could be C major or A minor for example.

2. The mode.....possibly more useful.

Im assuming the reason behind writing a tune down even in greek times was for 2 reasons...so a tune could be transported around....and for a tune to reward the writer for financial gain. but i sense a bit of.....maybe snobberys the wrong word maybe a tad of closed shopness (if such a word exists) in that you need a certain level of knowledge to work out the simple fundamendals of a tune the 'key' to the whole issue if you want.....theres endless discussions of what key is this tune?

.....there must be a good reason why this isnt done but why....the tunes key seems to be only included on the front sheet with writers and publishers bumpf....its obviously important so why not put it where it belongs?

Edited July 26, 2013 by iconic

[LukeFRC]

see I know nothing - but I thought you could tell from the sharps and flats at the start of the bar?

[iconic]

Well sort of....but its more of a tease to me...why not write in C major at the start of that stave type thing....wouldnt take much ink.

Edited July 26, 2013 by iconic

[Si600]

I also thought that the sharps and flats denoted the key, but that does mean you need to know which set of notes are in a key to begin with. Or I'm talking out of my backside again.

[iconic]

Its more like me talking out my arse but i would like know why?

[JapanAxe]

There is no conspiracy! The group of sharps or flats at the start of the piece (and normally at the start of each line) is called the [u]key signature[/u], and it [i]does[/i] tell you the key, or at least give you a choice of two.


If you are playing from sheet music, the mode becomes apparent if the tonal centre differs from that of the key signature. For example, a piece in G Mixolydian would be written after a G major key signature with all the F's shown as naturals, or using the key signature of C major (where all the F's are natural anyway).

I expect none of that makes sense to you, but the learning of music theory has a pretty steep curve!

Edited July 26, 2013 by JapanAxe

[Si600]

Ooooo, pretty pictures

That's actually really helpful, thank you

[Stuart Clayton]

[quote name='iconic' timestamp='1374821467' post='2153536']
Well sort of....but its more of a tease to me...why not write in C major at the start of that stave type thing....wouldnt take much ink.
[/quote]

You can generally see what the key is if the music has chords written. What you are suggesting here is actually used sometimes though, particularly where modes are concerned. For example, a piece might have a key signature for E major (or C# minor) but state 'key signature denotes B Mixolydian'. This would be done if the piece revolves around a B7 tonality.

Stuart

[chris_b]

You don't know music theory and you're blaming the theory for that?

Just learn it!

Edited July 26, 2013 by chris_b

[Bilbo]

It is a language that needs to be learned. The best reader I ever knew, a pianist who could read what I called 'ten finger piano' charts pretty much perfectly right off the bat, told me that from starting to learn to being that fluent took 15 years (he started young). Most people can get pretty good at reading single lines quite quickly and then it is a case of 'speeding up' until you can read more and more without crashing. But it takes time, just like reading prose. No conspiracy, just a tried and tested method that makes things that much more viable for composers and performers alike to execute complex works quite quickly. It also makes learning easier as ideas can be communicated more readily.

Worth the the investment but it takes time, discipline and patience.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='iconic' timestamp='1374820046' post='2153524']...
1. The key....yes i know there are sharps and flats at the start....but that doesnt tell me the key....could be C major or A minor for example.

2. The mode.....possibly more useful.
...[/quote]

Good afternoon, iconic...

You're not entirely wrong, but one could consider that not everyone uses the same 'CDEFG...' convention; even less plain English. Musicians of any language or culture can, however, decypher music manuscripts. There are many terms derived from italian operatic language, for instance, that have become international.
Modes, I think, would only be useful in very specific circumstances, and the very term has evolved (or rather, is understood differently...) depending on the style, or period of music being considered. Bach would have a very different point of view from Miles Davis, and Charlie Christian would differ still. The concept is of little use in many (most..?) styles of music, if one was to take a broader view. I don't think Schubert 'thought' in Mixolydian terms (I may be wrong...).
Nice try, though.
As with many things, so with the language of music: it's the first 40 years that are the hardest, after which things get (slightly...) easier.

[dlloyd]

[quote name='iconic' timestamp='1374820046' post='2153524']
As a theory and reading nooobie I cant help thinking the way music is transcribed could be so much easier by the simple addition of two things at the start of a piece....sort of this is generally the gist of whats coming next.


1. The key....yes i know there are sharps and flats at the start....but that doesnt tell me the key....could be C major or A minor for example.

2. The mode.....possibly more useful.
[/quote]

Music isn't usually modal.

The key is a piece of cake to figure out. I learned it using the time honoured mnemonic:

Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle
Battle Ends And Down Goes Charles Father

The first line is the order in which sharps appear on the key signature: F, C, G, D, A, E, B.
The second line is the order in which flats appear on the key signature: B, E, A, D, G, C, F.

To get the correct key, you just have to know that C major has no sharps or flats.

Key signature with 5 flats... the flattened notes will be:
Bb Eb Ab Db Gb
(Battle Ends And Down Goes)
The key will be:
(Charles) Father Battle Ends And Down
= Db major (as we already know the D is flattened)

no sharps or flats? C major
1 sharp = G major
2 sharps = D major
3 sharps = A major
4 sharps = E major
5 sharps = B major
6 sharps = F# major
7 sharps = C# major

1 flat = F major
2 flats = Bb major
3 flats = Eb major
4 flats = Ab major
5 flats = Db major
6 flats = Gb major
7 flats = Cb major


Major or minor you ask? Easy... look through the music... are there a lot of accidentals through the piece? Particularly towards the resolution points? Minor melodies/harmonies tend to sharpen certain notes to give more tension to cadences, so if you see a lot of sharps or naturals, you'd probably be safe to say it's minor.

To work out the correct minor key, you just go down a third from the relative major

Db major by the key signature, but lots of accidentals telling you it's a minor? D, C, B... Bb minor

[iconic]

thanks guys

[iconic]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1374833584' post='2153739']
You don't know music theory and you're blaming the theory for that?

[i]No, not what I meant, obviously it didn't come across as such, just puzzled at times...it may have the Chris Issak Wicked Game tune that got me thinking...?[/i]

Just learn it!

[i]doing my best here, tis a big subject for one such as I![/i]
[/quote]

[iconic]

[quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1374847194' post='2154019']
Music isn't usually modal.

The key is a piece of cake to figure out. I learned it using the time honoured mnemonic:

Father Charles Goes Down And Ends Battle
Battle Ends And Down Goes Charles Father

The first line is the order in which sharps appear on the key signature: F, C, G, D, A, E, B.
The second line is the order in which flats appear on the key signature: B, E, A, D, G, C, F.

To get the correct key, you just have to know that C major has no sharps or flats.

Key signature with 5 flats... the flattened notes will be:
Bb Eb Ab Db Gb
(Battle Ends And Down Goes)
The key will be:
(Charles) Father Battle Ends And Down
= Db major (as we already know the D is flattened)

no sharps or flats? C major
1 sharp = G major
2 sharps = D major
3 sharps = A major
4 sharps = E major
5 sharps = B major
6 sharps = F# major
7 sharps = C# major

1 flat = F major
2 flats = Bb major
3 flats = Eb major
4 flats = Ab major
5 flats = Db major
6 flats = Gb major
7 flats = Cb major


Major or minor you ask? Easy... look through the music... are there a lot of accidentals through the piece? Particularly towards the resolution points? Minor melodies/harmonies tend to sharpen certain notes to give more tension to cadences, so if you see a lot of sharps or naturals, you'd probably be safe to say it's minor.

To work out the correct minor key, you just go down a third from the relative major

Db major by the key signature, but lots of accidentals telling you it's a minor? D, C, B... Bb minor
[/quote]

many thanks for the that



I learnt this method first of all though, the erm, err, quick 'n dirty method I call it:

sharps....half step above the last sharp is the key signature
flats........second to last flat is the key signature

many thanks guys, you took some time out to explain that, grateful

Edited July 26, 2013 by iconic

[ambient]

If it told you B major then you'd have to remember that B major contains D, F, G, A, and C sharp, if it said E major, then you'd have to remember that it contains C, G, D, and F sharp etc.

So I think the current system is better, no need to remember it 'cos you get a reminder at the start of the music.

Just do a bit of practice each day, it soon adds up and you pretty soon get familiar with it.

[Guest bassman7755]

If I was designing music notation from scratch I would completely dispense with the notion of # and b notes, and instead have 11 notes named A to K. Written music would then simply use 11 lines/space instead of 7 + accidentals.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1374875046' post='2154456']
If I was designing music notation from scratch I would completely dispense with the notion of # and b notes, and instead have 11 notes named A to K. Written music would then simply use 11 lines/space instead of 7 + accidentals.
[/quote]

And the piano would be a total mindful!

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1374944105' post='2155107']
And the piano would be a total mindful!
[/quote]

Not really, just get rid of the black keys and have 11 white ones per octave

Edited July 27, 2013 by bassman7755

[ubassman]

It always impresses me when our conductor deals out some new music to the 50 musicians in the orchestra everyone just sight reads and out comes this amazing sound. Figuring out the key and sight reading is a skill just like reading aloud from a book - when you get really good you can read like and tell a story like an Actor reading a script . When you start out reading it can be a bit clumsy at first but eventually reading becomes invisible.

I always look at the key signature flats and sharps at the start - it tells me the key and where on the fingerboard I am going to place my hand so that the notes fall under my fingers. For example if it got 2 flats instant reaction without thinking is that the piece is probably in Bb Major and so I will be down at the equivalent of first fret ( A string) or if theres some high notes maybe pitch at the Bb at the 6th fret ( e string ). Of course without playing a note it could be G minor too and be centred around the 3rd fret but you can tell before you start if you have a standard ll,V,1 'turn around' at the start of the piece or can see a chord progression that you know are the modes of the root . Pretty much as soon as you get going you confirm the key in your head.

[paul_5]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1374949803' post='2155194']


Not really, just get rid of the black keys and have 11 white ones per octave
[/quote]

But then all the pianist's hands would be too small... Excuse me, I think I need to lie down.

[skej21]

My drill for reading is simple but gets rid of the annoyances you seem have with reading.

First, I look at the key sig and then quickly scan through to see what the most commonly occurring notes are. 9/10, they narrow down the ambiguity of the key sig (for example, if you have 1 sharp but there are a lot of 'E's in the piece, it's likely to be E minor, not G major).

I then look for the highest note and the lowest note in the piece. This then tells me which positions I will need to be prepared to use and how far up/down the neck I NEED to go.

Finally, I look for any tricky looking phrases, again so I know that they're coming and if I don't get a chance to give it a quick 'ghost run' then at least I take away the rush of adrenaline and panic that can occur when a tricky part comes out if nowhere lol.

[iconic]

I thought I'd take a gander at what the wiki has to say, worth taking 5 mins out, some interesting stuff in there if ya new to theory like myself....err, if it's correct?

[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_(music"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Key_(music[/url]

Edited July 28, 2013 by iconic

[iconic]

...a few things seems to going decimal, money, measurement and we only really have twelve notes at the moment a sort of imperial system if you want... and that is a fudge of sorts (equal temperment) I wonder what a 10 note system [i][b]would[/b][/i] sound like....I'll google that, someone must have done a video for that

[dlloyd]

[quote name='iconic' timestamp='1375012026' post='2155670']
...a few things seems to going decimal, money, measurement and we only really have twelve notes at the moment a sort of imperial system if you want... and that is a fudge of sorts (equal temperment) I wonder what a 10 note system [i][b]would[/b][/i] sound like....I'll google that, someone must have done a video for that
[/quote]

There are very good harmonic reasons why we settled on 12 tones in Western music... some other traditions ignore tonality altogether (Gamelan music for example) and a lot of composers have experimented with other tuning systems. Harry Partch is a good example... he went for a 43 tone unequal system:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYdmNTgPM3A"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYdmNTgPM3A[/url]