Sticky neck syndrome!

[Roger2611]

Ok possibly not a syndrome but horrid none the less. Last night we played a local pub, yes it was hot but it has been that way for at least the last 4 gigs we have played however, last night both the guitarist and I found the backs of our respective guitar/ bass necks so sticky that it actually had an impact on our playing.

I used my 50's Classic P bass for the first set but had to change to the P bass lyte after the first set because the 50's Classic was virtually unplayable, the lyte was slightly better but not by much (both are strung with flat wounds and I don't think they feel very nice in hot sticky conditions)Our guitarist uses PRS guitars.

My question is: what causes a neck to suddenly feel horribly sticky...after all it's not a new bass and it always kept nice and clean...and any tips as to what you can do to lose the stickiness other than taking the lacquer off the back of the neck which I don't really want to do.

Rog

[Dingus]

Well , you've hit on the big dilemma in neck finishes here , Rog. A lot of manufacturers have abandoned the once universal laquer finish on bass necks in favour of oil and wax finishes that feel like sanded wood , but the stability of the neck can , in certain cases , be compromised as a result . Also , laquer finishes are easier to keep clean and require less maintainance than oil /wax finished ones . In a hot environment , keeping a nice clean and dry towel handy to rub your sweaty hands and other sweaty bits on in between songs can help a little.

Edited July 27, 2013 by Dingus

[discreet]

Had this problem with a poly-finish neck and solved it by removing some (not all) of the finish with a Scotchbrite pad wrapped around a sanding block. Lovely and smooth now, and no sweaty neck hampering (SNH).

[paul_5]

Horrid, horrid feeling. I have recollections of using a '75 reissue Jazz in a studio and having exactly the same problem.

This is the only reason I've never owned a Fender.

[mickster]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1374942315' post='2155072']
Had this problem with a poly-finish neck and solved it by removing some (not all) of the finish with a Scotchbrite pad wrapped around a sanding block. Lovely and smooth now, and no sweaty neck hampering (SNH).
[/quote]

This. I use one of those yellow washing up sponges with the green scourer-type pad on one side. Scrub round in circles all over the neck & it takes the gloss off. Easy to repolish back to glossy if you ever feel the need to.

[xilddx]

Wear silk gloves. I never have that problem of sticky sweaty necks now. And the massive bonus is the gloves make you look like a right slag and people notice the bass and ask you questions after

[discreet]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1374948876' post='2155176']
...the gloves make you look like a right slag and people notice the bass and ask you questions after
[/quote]

I'm IN.

[Maude]

Yep, I've always found just taking the gloss off the lacquer helps a lot, still leaves the lacquer to protect the neck but it's the glossiness that makes it sticky.
A nice fine scotchbrite will do it.
Over time your hands will polish it back up slightly but a quick rub will sort it again, easily reversible if not happy as long as you don't go too mad with the Scotchbrite.

[Dingus]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1374948876' post='2155176']
Wear silk gloves. I never have that problem of sticky sweaty necks now. And the massive bonus is the gloves make you look like a right slag and people notice the bass and ask you questions after
[/quote]

What kind of questions do they ask you ? Are they along the lines of " Do you have a skin disease ? "

[Maude]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1374948876' post='2155176']
Wear silk gloves. I never have that problem of sticky sweaty necks now. And the massive bonus is the gloves make you look like a right slag and people notice the bass and ask you questions after
[/quote]

I hope they're the type that go up past your elbow ........................... erm .... sexy?

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Maude' timestamp='1374949354' post='2155186']
Yep, I've always found just taking the gloss off the lacquer helps a lot, still leaves the lacquer to protect the neck but it's the glossiness that makes it sticky.
A nice fine scotchbrite will do it.
Over time your hands will polish it back up slightly but a quick rub will sort it again, easily reversible if not happy as long as you don't go too mad with the Scotchbrite.
[/quote]

Can someone please explain the physics behind this?

I'd have thought that putting hundreds of thousands of tinny scratches in the finish would increase the friction not decrease it.

I can't help but think that glossy = sticky is either down to the wrong type of gloss finish or entirely psychological. Most of the basses I use have gloss finished necks and I've never noticed them being any different to the few I have with a more matt finish. The stickiest necks I ever encountered were on Warwicks that felt and looked like they had no finish on them at all.

[ikay]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1374996937' post='2155494']
Can someone please explain the physics behind this?
[/quote]
A gloss neck feels 'sticky' not because of its finishing material, but because it is a perfectly flat surface.. There's maximum contact with your hand and therefore more friction when you move your hand along the neck. A satin finish has tiny imperfections that reduce friction because your hand has slightly less contact with the neck surface.

The stickiness factor is accentuated by hot and sweaty conditions. A small amount of sweat increases hand contact with the neck and makes it feel stickier. Loads of sweat (to the extent that it's pouring off you) will act as a lubricant by creating a film between your hand and the neck and make it feel slicker.

That's the theory anyway! In practice some gloss finishes do feel less sticky than others but a satin finish will generally feel slicker. With unfinished necks it depends how it's been finished. This is usually some combination of oil and wax which can soften and feel sticky in hot conditions.

Edited July 28, 2013 by ikay

[BigRedX]

Thanks. That sort of makes sense.

However from personal experience I still think that the major factor is the actual composition of the finish and not whether it's glossy or satin. As I said in my previous post the majority of my basses have gloss finished necks, and the only times I have had problems with them being slightly sticky has been in very hot and sweaty conditions, and then the non-gloss finished necks have been no better.

[andyonbass]

It might seem obvious but wash your hands before you play, especially if you have been having a beer or soft drink beforehand. Some pubs have a tendency to stop pouring only when the glass overflows and of course it get on your hands.

Unless you're in Swindon where most of the pubs I play in serve short measures!

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1374996937' post='2155494']


Can someone please explain the physics behind this?

I'd have thought that putting hundreds of thousands of tinny scratches in the finish would increase the friction not decrease it.

I can't help but think that glossy = sticky is either down to the wrong type of gloss finish or entirely psychological. Most of the basses I use have gloss finished necks and I've never noticed them being any different to the few I have with a more matt finish. The stickiest necks I ever encountered were on Warwicks that felt and looked like they had no finish on them at all.
[/quote]

I guess(and it really is a guess) that the rougher surface of a scotchbrited neck reduces the contract area - resulting in less friction whilst also channelling the moisture away- like drainage grooves on car tyres.
Warwick necks ought to be unfinished, but some people wax/polish them.
I find they can become sticky, but quickly rubbing any offending neck with a towel/ t shirt or lint-free drummer and they should be OK.

[mart]

[quote name='ikay' timestamp='1374999661' post='2155513']...
A gloss neck feels 'sticky' not because of its finishing material, but because it is a perfectly flat surface.. There's maximum contact with your hand and therefore more friction when you move your hand along the neck. A satin finish has tiny imperfections that reduce friction because your hand has slightly less contact with the neck surface.
...
[/quote]
I'm sorry, but this is not correct. In any situation if you hold something smooth then there is less friction than if you hold something that is not smooth. This is because if the surface is rough the your skin folds into the shape of the surface, giving a much higher contact area than on a smooth surface of the same apparent area. (Much like a road from A to B that goes up and down a lot will be longer than a road that is completely flat, because the ups and downs add to the length.)

If you rub glass against glass, then yes, there will be more friction than rubbing glass against, say, wood. But that is because the glass does not give in the same way that your hand does. But even a child knows that if you rub a smooth object then there is less friction than with a rough object.

You are right that sweat can act as a lubricant, but I find it hard to believe that a small layer of sweat would actually increase friction as you claim. But I don't know - maybe that is true.

As for why different necks feel sticky, I have to say I have no idea. I think we subconsciously think that the heat is slightly melting the lacquer. I don't imagine that's possible, but I have no idea. And it doesn't fit with BRX's experience that oil-finished necks (like on Warwicks) are worse than others.

[discreet]

Of course, if our fretting-hand techniques were perfect we wouldn't have this problem.

[xilddx]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1374954355' post='2155263']
What kind of questions do they ask you ? Are they along the lines of " Do you have a skin disease ? "
[/quote]

I have world class eczema if that counts, although it's generally well managed with steroids. Questions are always along the lines of 'why do you wear gloves?' 'don't the gloves impede your playing?' etc. First answer is I like the way they turn me into Audrey Hepburn. Second answer is did I sound like they impeded my playing? and they actually feel like a second skin and I like how smooth the bass sounds and feels with them on.

[quote name='Maude' timestamp='1374955901' post='2155281']
I hope they're the type that go up past your elbow ........................... erm .... sexy?
[/quote]

I don't wear t-shirts or short sleeves on stage

[iceonaboy]

I use a beer towel to wipe down my fretboard after every song as we play in sweaty places all the time ( we have lights)

[BigRedX]

[quote name='iceonaboy' timestamp='1375014520' post='2155726']
I use a beer towel to wipe down my fretboard after every song as we play in sweaty places all the time ( we have lights)
[/quote]

You have time to do that?

[Roger2611]

Cheers for the suggestions guys, I wonder if it could have been down to the chemicals the pub used to wash their glasses? It just seemed weird how we have both used the same guitars in equally hot and humid conditions before yet had not experienced the same issue. I guess the other possibility is that the conditions were just perfect to produce the slightly sweaty but not too sweaty effect, either way wiping with a beer towel between songs had absolutely no effect

[Dingus]

[quote name='xilddx' timestamp='1375014391' post='2155721']
I have world class eczema if that counts, although it's generally well managed with steroids. Questions are always along the lines of 'why do you wear gloves?' 'don't the gloves impede your playing?' etc. First answer is I like the way they turn me into Audrey Hepburn. Second answer is did I sound like they impeded my playing? and they actually feel like a second skin and I like how smooth the bass sounds and feels with them on.

[/quote]

Back when I first started playing someone told me that Geezer Butler got his sound by wearing rubber gloves to record with . In retrospect , I seriously doubt that was true ! I have never tried it , but I don't think I could play bass with silk gloves on . I don't see how you can get a proper sense of touch , especially with the plucking hand , but it obviously works for you , so fair enough . Just changing from rough stainless steel strings to smoother - feeling nickel threw me off badly enough . I saw Etienne Mbappe playing with John McGlaughlin and he wears silk gloves , too , and he is no slouch on the bass , so you are in good company .

[ikay]

[quote name='mart' timestamp='1375010722' post='2155653']
I'm sorry, but this is not correct....
[/quote]
Oh well, it seemed reasonable to me! In that case I'll join the rest of you and say I haven't got a clue

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1374996937' post='2155494']
Can someone please explain the physics behind this?

I'd have thought that putting hundreds of thousands of tinny scratches in the finish would increase the friction not decrease it.

I can't help but think that glossy = sticky is either down to the wrong type of gloss finish or entirely psychological. Most of the basses I use have gloss finished necks and I've never noticed them being any different to the few I have with a more matt finish. The stickiest necks I ever encountered were on Warwicks that felt and looked like they had no finish on them at all.
[/quote]
We did this thread a few weeks ago...
[quote name='mart' timestamp='1375010722' post='2155653']
I'm sorry, but this is not correct. In any situation if you hold something smooth then there is less friction than if you hold something that is not smooth. This is because if the surface is rough the your skin folds into the shape of the surface, giving a much higher contact area than on a smooth surface of the same apparent area. (Much like a road from A to B that goes up and down a lot will be longer than a road that is completely flat, because the ups and downs add to the length.)

If you rub glass against glass, then yes, there will be more friction than rubbing glass against, say, wood. But that is because the glass does not give in the same way that your hand does. [b]But even a child knows that if you rub a smooth object then there is less friction than with a rough object.[/b]

You are right that sweat can act as a lubricant, but I find it hard to believe that a small layer of sweat would actually increase friction as you claim. But I don't know - maybe that is true.

As for why different necks feel sticky, I have to say I have no idea. I think we subconsciously think that the heat is slightly melting the lacquer. I don't imagine that's possible, but I have no idea. And it doesn't fit with BRX's experience that oil-finished necks (like on Warwicks) are worse than others.
[/quote]

ikay was correct IMO, this is how racing cars tyres work, do they have lots of small grooves or just slicks for maximum grip? in the wet they need grooves to remove the water to regain that contact but in the dry smooth tyre and smooth tarmac gives the most grip, it is all about surface area so although the abrasions will add some grip in some cases the loss of surface area will lose more than you gain. Think of wheel barrow handles that are smooth and give you blisters compared to textured rubber handles of a bicycle? the smoothness grips your skin and pinches it as your hands move.

Try running your finger down a very clean glass with pressure applied then down a lightly textured surface and tell us how you get on

Edited July 28, 2013 by stingrayPete1977

[BigRedX]

With cars tyres - racing ones in particular - it's all about how the two surfaces interact with each other. You want the maximum contact area, but you also need the right two materials to give the grip, which is why different tyre compounds are used at different race tracks where the track surface is different.

The glass vs textured surface again isn't a good analogy because they are two different materials.

Rubber handles on a wheel barrow are textured for more grip.

I'm more convinced than ever that it is to do with the substances used to produce the finish on the neck and not the glossiness of the finish itself that contributes to stickiness.