alexclaber Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 [quote name='bassjamm' post='219014' date='Jun 14 2008, 10:26 PM']And when translated into English that means...?[/quote] Just re-reading my post and can't see what's so complicated about it! Could you clarify what you don't understand? Power handling specs are about as useful on bass cabs as are top speed ones on sportcars if you live in London - you will never be able to sustain enough power into the cab to overheat the speakers, just as you will never find a long enough bit of road in the city to reach anywhere near top speed. What matters is how well your speakers will handle excursion (hopefully you've noticed that speakers move backwards and forward to create sound), just as it matters far more how fast your sportscar can take a speedhump wihtout breaking the suspension or bottoming out (if you want to get round London fast, that is). Unfortunately neither cab makers nor car makers respectively tell you this data. Alex P.S. I love you too Robbie, you've made me the best bass ever! x P.P.S. For the money the Dr Bass 2460 totally whips the Whappo Jr on every respect except low frequency extension - and as you say, you can always just turn up the lows and then they're level on that front too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted June 15, 2008 Share Posted June 15, 2008 In all fairness the only way to decide between the Hellborg and the Dr Bass is to try them. And thats gonna be impossible unless you take a Dr Bass cab to someboby who stocks the Hellborg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chardbass Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 [quote name='alexclaber' post='219209' date='Jun 15 2008, 01:40 PM']Just re-reading my post and can't see what's so complicated about it! Could you clarify what you don't understand? Power handling specs are about as useful on bass cabs as are top speed ones on sportcars if you live in London - you will never be able to sustain enough power into the cab to overheat the speakers, just as you will never find a long enough bit of road in the city to reach anywhere near top speed. What matters is how well your speakers will handle excursion (hopefully you've noticed that speakers move backwards and forward to create sound),[/quote] You need to admit that phrases such as "thermally limited power handling" and "excursion limited power handling" aren't used in everyday musician-spiel before coming over as a shade patronising Let's share knowledge and explain it if necessary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 (edited) like a lot of us I expect Alex is getting fed up with explaining the same things over and over again - often to the same people. Two things destroy drivers: 1. Over-heating the voice coil so it melts (actually if will expand and sieze up before it gets that far) 2. Making the cone move in and out further than it is designed to - this will tear the suspension round the edge of the cone or make the voice coil come completely out of the magnet assembly (or both if you try really hard) Overheating the voice coil is the thermal limit and popping the cone is the excursion limit. Edited June 16, 2008 by bass_ferret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='219777' date='Jun 16 2008, 12:26 PM']like a lot of us I expect Alex is getting fed up with explaining the same things over and over again - often to the same people. Two things destroy drivers: 1. Over-heating the voice coil so it melts (actually if will expand and sieze up before it gets that far) 2. Making the cone move in and out further than it is designed to - this will tear the suspension round the edge of the cone or make the voice coil come completely out of the magnet assembly (or both if you try really hard) Overheating the voice coil is the thermal limit and popping the cone is the excursion limit.[/quote] Misalignment - say through dropping... and spilt beer on the speakers also are another couple of ways of destroying drivers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 [quote name='EBS_freak' post='219791' date='Jun 16 2008, 12:42 PM']Misalignment - say through dropping... and spilt beer on the speakers also are another couple of ways of destroying drivers [/quote] Silly me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 [quote name='chardbass' post='219769' date='Jun 16 2008, 12:13 PM']You need to admit that phrases such as "thermally limited power handling" and "excursion limited power handling" aren't used in everyday musician-spiel before coming over as a shade patronising [/quote] I would come across as less patronising if more people bothered to actually think what is going on with amplification rather than just obsessing over headline figures of watts, watts, watts! How am I supposed to know what is not understood if all the response I get is "And when translated into English that means...?" If I can be bothered to put the effort into trying to explain what all this means, then I expect a similar effort to be returned into trying to understand my explanation, which involves asking for clarification in an intelligent way instead of the far cooler but utterly useless "what is that boffin talking about, I'm just a bass player". I shall now wait for bassjamm to rephrase his inane request for translation into something constructive to which I can respond in a useful manner... Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EBS_freak Posted June 16, 2008 Share Posted June 16, 2008 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='219799' date='Jun 16 2008, 12:49 PM']Silly me [/quote] He he. I reckon there are more speakers killed through the latter list... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chardbass Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='219777' date='Jun 16 2008, 12:26 PM']like a lot of us I expect Alex is getting fed up with explaining the same things over and over again - often to the same people. Two things destroy drivers: 1. Over-heating the voice coil so it melts (actually if will expand and sieze up before it gets that far) 2. Making the cone move in and out further than it is designed to - this will tear the suspension round the edge of the cone or make the voice coil come completely out of the magnet assembly (or both if you try really hard) Overheating the voice coil is the thermal limit and popping the cone is the excursion limit.[/quote] Just found your link to my post re Alex's comments on another thread! You really are a bit of a tell-tale aren't you? If you are getting so fed-up then don't post anymore- you seem intent on antagonising with your posts. Surely it's up to us, the more experienced players, to be understanding and patient with people even if the same question is being asked. If it's the same people asking the same questions then ignore it- it's not your problem. We learn and we pass it on, but surely we never brag about our knowledge and make people feel inferior for not knowing- people become afraid of asking after a while. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 (edited) Sorry - if the sh*t fits............................... Edited June 17, 2008 by bass_ferret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassjamm Posted June 17, 2008 Author Share Posted June 17, 2008 This was not what i had in mind when i started this thread...i was merely asking a few questions about the range on offer. As for this whole wattage issue. Sorry if my comment 'and when translated into English that means...' was taking the wrong way, but in all honesty, you were speaking another language to me. I understand the comments about not taking time to learn about gear to that extent, but then again, i'm more intent on learning more about theory and harmony, things that will progress me as a player. Yes, at the moment i'm asking about gear, but i wasn't to know about all that technical stuff. I now do. As for all of this...i still don't get the 200 watts thing, but to be fair, i don't think it needs explaining any further. I think i've got the gist of it, but to be fair, all i've ever known about is watts, and i think i'd speak for many by saying that's what most people go by. If it's more to do with sensitivity then perhaps that what should be pointed out...i don't know. Anyway, sorry if i've caused a ruck or any debate. Thank you all for your input. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 (edited) Dont worry Jaime, all bass players are obsessed by watts If you look at the specs Warwick actually say 200 watts continuous, 400 watts peak. Peavey always used to list a continuous and peak rating but most cab makers only publish the peak. In theory the continuous rating is just that - what the cabs or drivers can handle on continuous power like just holding a low note on a keyboard. Bass playing is never about continuous power and most of the time its f*** all because the peak power is only output when we strike the string and immediately starts dropping. You sometimes see average power quoted but that is equally bullshit. One of these days somebody will write something about cabs for the wiki. Perhaps chardbass could do it. Edited June 17, 2008 by bass_ferret Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 [quote name='bassjamm' post='220857' date='Jun 17 2008, 07:15 PM']...all i've ever known about is watts, and i think i'd speak for many by saying that's what most people go by. If it's more to do with sensitivity then perhaps that what should be pointed out...i don't know.[/quote] Let me put it another way - amps produce watts, speakers produce sound. Speakers can generally handle far more than their rated power in the midrange but less than their rated power in the lows - fortunately they make quite obvious nasty farting noises of complaint if you push them too hard, long before any damage is done. Just to clarify matters, speakers contain a coil of wire, like that on an electric bar heater or in a toaster, that can handle a certain amount of power before overheating. That is the thermal power handling limit. Fortunately music goes up and down in volume, has rests, has gaps between notes, etc and therefore it is effectively impossible to get any amp to constantly produce anywhere near full power for more than a brief moment. Thus the coil of wire has time to cool down before it's hit with another brief burst of full power. If using no compression or distortion you could very safely drive a 100W speaker with a 1000W amp turned up to clipping on the loudest notes without risk of thermal damage. You cannot usually hear this thermal damage approaching but fortunately it is very rare on bass guitar woofers. The other issue I referred to is one of how far back and forth the speaker can move without distortion and then damage. To produce low E with the same tone and at the same volume as the E an octave higher, your speaker has to move four times as far. Unfortunately because it is expensive to make a speaker that is capable of moving that far, and it usually means the speaker won't be as loud as one with shorter travel. The reality is that if you try to put more than about 300W in the lows into a 4x10" rated at 1000W the speakers will move so far they will distort. If you put even more power into the lows you will either damage the speaker suspension or the voice coil will jump out of the magnetic gap or hit the backplate. This is what happens when you exceed the mechanical or excursion power handling limit. With unEQ'd bass guitar you're usually fairly safe running quite a lot of power into a cab but as soon as you start boosting lows or getting too aggressive on the lowest notes of a 5-string then that nasty farting noise rears its head. With a load of bass boost you could cause nasty damage to a 1000W rated 4x10" with only a 500W amp. Fortunately the sound of the mechanical damage limit approaching is that obvious farting noise. If it were down to me, manufacturers would not quote any power ratings for speakers due to their general irrelevance. A better route would be to recommend how much (solidstate - valve is a different kettle of fish) power is needed as minimum for gigging and as a maximum for safe use without worrying too much about damage, so for instance I would say that my old Acme Low-B2s worked well with amps from 200-800W. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassjamm Posted June 17, 2008 Author Share Posted June 17, 2008 I understand what you're saying there... So in reality, the only way to know whether a cab can handle your amp, bass...and technique, is to try it! I'm using a an SVT all valve head and i've had that 'farting' sound from my cabs, dispite them being rated 500 watts at 8 ohms, i've had it when i've used them together and seperately...and my amp is 300 watts at 4 ohms...valves though!!! I've just had the pre-amp valves replaced though, so i'm guessing that could also have been cause for 'farting' noises. I pushed the low end and the valves were knackerd, so maybe they distorted, not the speakers? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 [quote name='bassjamm' post='220901' date='Jun 17 2008, 08:02 PM']I understand what you're saying there... So in reality, the only way to know whether a cab can handle your amp, bass...and technique, is to try it! I'm using a an SVT all valve head and i've had that 'farting' sound from my cabs, dispite them being rated 500 watts at 8 ohms, i've had it when i've used them together and seperately...and my amp is 300 watts at 4 ohms...valves though!!! I've just had the pre-amp valves replaced though, so i'm guessing that could also have been cause for 'farting' noises. I pushed the low end and the valves were knackerd, so maybe they distorted, not the speakers?[/quote] I doubt your preamp valve would be the cause of the noise from your cab, I think you are safer assuming the former, that it was the speaker complaining. There are better valve experts on here than me who may be able to give more insight but speaking from 28 years experience (not all of it dedicated to valve amps but I've had my share); generally when preamp valves go they lose top end first and you'll get microphonic noise, I've not encountered a preamp valve inducing 'farting'! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 Oxblood is your man for valves but you will have to go to finnbass to ask him. Unlike some of the others I dont think he fell out with kiwi - just got fed up with tossers who knew f*** all telling him he was talking bollocks. Ring any bells with some of the threads that have been active lately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 [quote name='bassjamm' post='220901' date='Jun 17 2008, 08:02 PM']So in reality, the only way to know whether a cab can handle your amp, bass...and technique, is to try it![/quote] Basically yes! Though on the limited production run I'm commencing of my own designs I've analysed the designs to the extent that I'll be quite happy to supply detailed specs on response and power handling. [quote name='bassjamm' post='220901' date='Jun 17 2008, 08:02 PM']I'm using a an SVT all valve head and i've had that 'farting' sound from my cabs, dispite them being rated 500 watts at 8 ohms, i've had it when i've used them together and seperately...and my amp is 300 watts at 4 ohms...valves though!!! I've just had the pre-amp valves replaced though, so i'm guessing that could also have been cause for 'farting' noises. I pushed the low end and the valves were knackerd, so maybe they distorted, not the speakers?[/quote] Hmmm... It could be your amp, it could be your cabs. The thing about valve amps is that they don't have any more truly clean power than equally powered solidstate amps. But they do sound nice when you push them into clipping, giving you soft compression, then overdrive and eventually limiting when they're really maxed out, by which point they're making a hell of a distorted monster roar. But if you're a player who expects a clean dynamic sound and is playing at the kind of volume where the amp is generally running clean, as soon as you hit a loud low note then bam! you get a sudden dose of farty overdrive. I suspect that may be your problem, especially if it's still happening with both cabs running, which combined one would hope could handle the Ampeg's peak power in the low frequencies. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chardbass Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='220886' date='Jun 17 2008, 07:40 PM']One of these days somebody will write something about cabs for the wiki. Perhaps chardbass could do it.[/quote] It ain't me that's being the smart-arse! My knowledge of such matters is inferior to others' on this forum- I can spot a bully when I see one though. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='chardbass' post='221069' date='Jun 18 2008, 03:39 AM'] It ain't me that's being the smart-arse! My knowledge of such matters is inferior to others' on this forum- I can spot a bully when I see one though.[/quote] So when are you going to stop calling people names and contribute something posetive to this thread? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rodl2005 Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Thanx again Alex. AGAIN U help clarify many points I find difficult to grasp!!!! Thanx! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='rodl2005' post='221151' date='Jun 18 2008, 09:49 AM']Thanx again Alex. AGAIN U help clarify many points I find difficult to grasp!!!! Thanx![/quote] Nice to be of use! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassjamm Posted June 18, 2008 Author Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='alexclaber' post='220952' date='Jun 17 2008, 09:34 PM']Hmmm... It could be your amp, it could be your cabs. The thing about valve amps is that they don't have any more truly clean power than equally powered solidstate amps. But they do sound nice when you push them into clipping, giving you soft compression, then overdrive and eventually limiting when they're really maxed out, by which point they're making a hell of a distorted monster roar. But if you're a player who expects a clean dynamic sound and is playing at the kind of volume where the amp is generally running clean, as soon as you hit a loud low note then bam! you get a sudden dose of farty overdrive. I suspect that may be your problem, especially if it's still happening with both cabs running, which combined one would hope could handle the Ampeg's peak power in the low frequencies. Alex[/quote] Hmm...interesting stuff!!! Well i have my first full on session with the SVT in it's repaired state tonight, and i'm taking my newly aquired SVP-Pro which i'll be running through my Hartke HA2000 to how that sounds. I'm guessing that if they both make the cabs go 'fartttt' then the cabs aren't doing so good, but if it's only with the SVT then that's because it's too powerful...crazy stuff!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dood Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='bassjamm' post='221485' date='Jun 18 2008, 04:07 PM']Hmm...interesting stuff!!! Well i have my first full on session with the SVT in it's repaired state tonight, and i'm taking my newly aquired SVP-Pro which i'll be running through my Hartke HA2000 to how that sounds. I'm guessing that if they both make the cabs go 'fartttt' then the cabs aren't doing so good, but if it's only with the SVT then that's because it's too powerful...crazy stuff!!![/quote] I believe (and certainly the case with the SVP) the bass control on the SVT is centred around 40Hz shelving.. so if you crank the bass hard and the cabs don't want to prduce the bottom end, you'll be adding to movement on the speaker cones (excursion) which will exacerpate any likelyhood of 'farting'.Which is basically the speakers reacting to the signal pushed into them violently, but not able to produce any useful sound. As I side note.. you know I was talking about those Yamaha power amps? I found if you set their active crossovers to 25Hz highpass it would stop 'farting' in its tracks, yet you wouldn't really hear any difference. This is because..as we have already found out .. 90% of bass cabs and speakers can't produce those frequencies enough to really hear anyway.A 'generic' bass cab *can* have a rolloff below 100Hz and defintely no useful bass end below 40Hz. May as well just filter out what the cab and speakers can't use.. it's wasteage. You know when they are struggling, when they are flapping backwards and forwards, farting and generally sounding horrible? too much boost on a low frequency centred bass control is usually the culpret. I found that putting in a 25Hz filter stopped the cone from visually flapping, improved response, tightened up the bottom end and allowed me to turn the amp up MUCH louder. To paraphrase SMART.. just a few thoughts! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwi Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='220926' date='Jun 17 2008, 08:58 PM']Oxblood is your man for valves but you will have to go to finnbass to ask him. Unlike some of the others I dont think he fell out with kiwi[/quote] They do spin some Class A sh*t over where speculation about my motives are concerned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='Crazykiwi' post='221794' date='Jun 18 2008, 10:45 PM']They do spin some Class A sh*t over where speculation about my motives are concerned.[/quote] Well i'm still here! I guess with your new signature you have turned over a new leaf TBH there is not a lot of action over there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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