Custom Jazz and P Basses - Consensus?

[BenTunnicliffe]

Aright everyone how we doing?

I was wondering in general what people's thoughts are on how it has been available (though not cheap at all) for a long time to be able to buy boutique/custom/luthier made versions of what are by now very well established designs that came from the Fender train of thought.

I do all of my playing on professional gigs on my Overwater Perception 5 which is decidedly modern sounding in lots of ways (active pickups, 3 band EQ, body shape, 24 frets etc) and although it is astoundingly flexible there is always a call for session players to have to pull out Precision's and Jazz bases because their sound is so ingrained in what so many people expect a bass to sound like for particular jobs.

I've talked to Chris May from Overwater about putting together a 5 string Precision for me with no particularly complex preamp design or anything but just a modern take on that classic sound but with a playability and range that I've trained myself to be able to use fluently; by now.

There's a lot of people on here who are advocates for sticking to the classic designs that have been around for so long by now (Rick's, Ps, Js, the Stringrays, Gibson's etc) and also a lot of people who preach the 'it's the 21st century let's get with the times and do away with looking back and move forward' kind of mentality.

Just food for thought on what people think of these basses (beyond them often looking absolutely astounding!) mainly on the basis that the investment in getting that extra 5th string and an upgraded preamp and playability might be a case of flogging a dead horse purely on the undeniable fact that it isn't as simple as these basses sounding like a carbon copy of a vintage Fender but just with extended range.

Interested to see what people think!

[bubinga5]

They take the Fender design and make them better.

[Conan]

[quote name='bubinga5' timestamp='1375890142' post='2167029']
They take the Fender design and make them better.
[/quote]

Yes. Fender make good basses that are certainly fit for purpose - but there is a lot that can be (and has been) "improved upon".

So why is it that so many players that have owned Sadowkys, Lulls, Alleva Coppolos and the like still come back to their old Fender Ps and Js?

Another point for discussion...

Edited August 7, 2013 by Conan

[peteb]

Do not underestimate power of the ‘Fender made in USA” transfer on the headstock – IME many people (bandleaders, producers, even certain members of the audience) just feel reassured if you bring a bass with such a sticker on the pointy end…!

[BenTunnicliffe]

All good points and strangely ones I agree with! (i was expecting a lot of animosity with 'it ain't broke...' popping up).

I must admit that the looks of a bass has become more important to me recently when I started researching branding and all that side of things.

A musical director I worked with backed up your point, Peteb who said that when he sees people arrive to work in his band and they pull out a 4 string he instantly predicts they're not incredibly versatile and that if a 6 string comes out that they're going to overplay.... His words not mine!

On that note then surely aesthetically suped-up old designs are a perfect balance for us because people can see and hear something relatable but we have the benefit of an enhanced design and flexibility etc?
Janek Gwizdala said that he has forced himself to take his old P bass to any pop auditions rather than his Fodera because producers want to see whatever guitars were flavour of the month in MTV videos that particular month....

With all these arguments FOR the custom J + Ps I definitely still think that in what I see top flight session guys and gals using and in general at shows there does still seem to be far more people playing either straight ahead relic Fenders and boutique, super modern custom designs (Like my Overwater perception) and much less people going out there with the kind of classic-bass-updated designs we're talking about.

[niceguyhomer]

I've had a few custom Fender copies - Shuker, Sandberg etc and they were nice basses but a good Fender P or J is like putting on your favourite underpants...warm, comforting and so right aaaaaahhhhhhhhhh

[PTB]

[quote name='BenTunnicliffe' timestamp='1375897002' post='2167146']
With all these arguments FOR the custom J + Ps I definitely still think that in what I see top flight session guys and gals using and in general at shows there does still seem to be far more people playing either straight ahead relic Fenders and boutique, super modern custom designs (Like my Overwater perception) and much less people going out there with the kind of classic-bass-updated designs we're talking about.
[/quote]

I can identify with this to some extent. I recently sold a Sadowsky and bought a '62 RI Jazz. To the non-anorak, they looked remarkably similar but I found I couldn't get a true vintage Jazz sound out of the Sadowsky. My MTD covers modern tones so the bass was not being used. This pairing suits me better.

Having said that, if I had money for another good bass, I must admit I would love a good 5 string Jazz with a retro appearance. I was very taken by the passive Nordy 5 that was on here a week or so back. Alas, that will have to wait a while.

[ead]

I must decalre an interest as I'm a serial ACG abuser.

To my mind it's an upgrade / update on the classic (in my case Fender basses). I think the core designs Leo produced were groundbreaking but not perfect and I personally don't have a problem with innovation and improvement. I'm sure with the right wood choices etc you could get the exact same sound if that was the goal. For me the most disappointing thing about Fender is the lack of development / R&D. It just seems like a load of re-issues coming out and escalating prices to accompany them (you'd think they that would have cracked how to make them by now).

One issue with custom basses I think is the resale value were you to move them on. They are by their nature personal things and thus a buyer might be harder to find. If you're buying a 'preloved' Fender J or P you pretty know what you're getting and I think second hand values reflect this. Not an issue for me as mine will not be for sale!

It is a very personal thing and probably divide opinions in a marmite type way. I have owned an MIJ Jazz (fretless) and an MIM P and tried a couple of MIA Fenders, but imho the fit and finish on the luthier made basses leaves them for dead. The weight and balance is considerably better too.

The Graft bass spec would provide a person with a hand crafted bass with more love and attention to detail than Fender US have the time to languish on their output, for less than £900. I am picking up what is essentially a J bass tomorrow (the neck p/up is a single coil) except for the overwound bridge p/up and a slightly different control setup of volume / tone / pickup selector.

http://www.acguitars.co.uk/acg_admin/wordpress/portfolio/2881/

I am also fortunate enough to own a full custom spec J type fretless which cost a good chunk less than £2k and is outstanding in every possible way (imho of course ).

http://www.acguitars.co.uk/acg_admin/wordpress/portfolio/0120-custom-j-type-fretless-4-string/

[Lfalex v1.1]

So is the answer to have a selection of basses?
Fender P
Fender J
Ultra-modern active super-bass
Modernised Super P or Super J - Lakland, Alleva, Sandberg, Sadowsky, Sei, Etc. Etc. Depending on budget, of course.

Or Do we need a luthier to more precisely manufacture Fender designs as closely as possible without infringing their design rights.

Or do you just go Fender Custom Shop?

Personally, I have the best (Fender) Jazz 4 string I could find, a Yamaha Attitude and several "modern" basses. No modernised Super Jazz for me, though. I'd have to be a 5 string, and I'm not sure the design works as a fiver...

[Musicman20]

I'm quite glad I don't play music for a living and have to bow down to requests for a certain 'aesthetic of Fender'. I have two Fender's and they are great basses, but they aren't that exciting.

If people can't think outside that bracket in 2013, then we are in trouble!!

Custom P's/J's - I undertand when people want a 'superjazz' 5 string, with a quality pre-amp, etc. I've play a few decent 5 string Fender's, but they don't hold anything over a Stingray 5...at all.

If you want a basic P or J bass, four string, and no fancy top, just fet a Fender. No point in spending £2000+ on that....

[chris_b]

[size=4][font=arial,helvetica,sans-serif][quote name='BenTunnicliffe' timestamp='1375886420' post='2166972']
....Interested to see what people think!....
[/quote]


I have a P, PJ, J, MM and JMM all in 2 basses. They can go vintage, modern and lots of places in between.

What's not to like?

I'd still be playing Fender if they made a good 5 string 20 years when I switched. They didn't, so I’ve been lucky enough to discover many great makes since then. Some sound like a Fender or even look like a Fender but, more importantly, they all sounded and played better than the Fenders I've tried. All my gear is designed to give me a good sound towards the vintage end of the scale. I have no experience of recent Fender 5 string basses, but they are reported to be getting better, so never say never.

I'm not proud, if someone wants to give me lots of money to play bass then I'll use whatever they want, but at the level I'm playing these days, how you play is more important than what you're playing it on.

I think it's a great time to be a bass player.[/font][/size]

Edited August 8, 2013 by chris_b

[clauster]

It's horses for courses innit?

My brother plays a 24fret, soapbars, 3 band eq bass which he's had for about 10 years. That's "his" bass.

I played mostly P basses for the first 10 years of my playing life. If it doesn't sound like a P bass it isn't "my" bass.

We've played each other's basses and can appreciate them, but we wouldn't swap. Passives sound wrong to him, anything that isn't a Precision (or doesn't have a split coil pickup) sounds wrong to me.

I've got smallish hands and wrist problems and I don't get on with Fender's Precision neck. At the other end of the scale, I also struggle with Ibanez SRs because they're too much the other way. My favourite neck was a Warwick from about 2005 - jazz nut width, but some meat to the "flattened D" profile and a pretty flat radius.

If I had the funds, I'd be straight on the phone to Jon Shuker to order my perfect P bass.

If you can get your ideal bass(es) from off the shelf - great and go for it. If not then I'm really happy bespoke luthiers provide an alternative for those who know what they want.

[grayn]

If you want aa superb J or P custom, I don't think you'll beat an Overwater.

[AndroWal]

I have a J5 in the works with Martin and Chris. Really excited about it. Looking forward to having a great J...

[ZenBasses]

Having played a vast array of Jazz basses I'll happily say that to these ears a Fender is a workhorse.

They have the sound and the looks that most people instantly recognise.

But to me a Fender is beaten hands down by my GB... Yes I kinda get the notion that you have your 'own' sound and tbh no matter what basses I play (except maybe an air bass) I sound like me.

But... With a Fender there's just no sparkle no extra mojo... The urge to play and innovate is boundless with my GB This imo is down to the feel and the balance... And also the uber powerful electrics and series/parallel Kent Armstrong pickups...

Everyone is different....
Everyone's ears and brains are not the same..

It's that little something you just can't put your finger on.. All I know from my own experience that Fender just feel a bit... Cheap...

It's like stepping from a BMW 7 series into a Rolls Royce Ghost..

Underneath they are the same.

But the Rolls will always been a cut above in 'perceived' luxury... Whether or not the materials used are of a lesser quality is irrelevant..but you know someone spent days hand stitching those seats.. Hand polishing all the wood and trimming the car with all them sheep hides.

I pick up my GB and I know that it was hand carved. Lovingly hand painting etc etc.

This gives it the X factor...


The fact that no normal people would be able to sell the difference?.. I couldn't gives a monkey nuts about that.

I am just not inspired by Fender...



Of course on the flip side someone would say your daft spending 3x as much on a Rolls than what is essentially the same mechanical drive train and chassis.

But what do they know?

..... The above probably doesn't make any sense at all.. But hey... What do I know?

Lol

Edited August 8, 2013 by ZenBasses

[cocco]

I love my Lakland Bob Glaub, I've had several P's over the years and this is the first one that's kept my attention tonally. It also plays like butter and the build quality is tip top. It's literally a tort pick guard away from perfection.

[ChickenKiev]

I'm the other way around when it comes to basses; the simpler the better. Spending countless pennies on these 'perfect' iterations of Jazz and Precision basses is totally not my thing.

Why do we need 24 frets? How often have you really all said to yourself "Gee, I really wish I could have that note on the 24th fret of the G-string"? Hm?

I dunno, maybe it's just me being a young heathen that's grown up on a healthy diet of punk, hardcore and metal. Maybe I can't appreciate the finer instruments. Giving me a boutique instrument would be like feeding strawberries to a donkey.

Billy Sheehan. Hate that guy. Sure, he sounds like a really nice guy in interviews and stuff, but I honestly cannot stand him as a bassist. His playing style and his signature bass are just way WAY too much. A dual output bass is just about as abnoxious and pretentious as you can get.

Okay I'm ranting a little now, but my point is that to me, bass is Sid Vicious, Paul Simonon, Lemmy. I'm digressing completely from the topic now.

In a nutshell, give me a sh*tty made in Mexico Fender to any of your high end Warwicks or Dingwalls any day. Keep it simple guys.

[CHRISDABASS]

This is a really interesting topic!!

I'm glad that us bassists are a diverse bunch! Because of that we have such a wide, weird and wonderful selection of instruments to choose from!

Guitarists on the other hand, i almost feel sorry for. They seem to be stuck in the past and refuse to try new things. If it isnt a strat, tele or les paul they don't want to know. A little sad really.

[chris_b]

[quote name='CHRISDABASS' timestamp='1376120175' post='2169858']
....Guitarists on the other hand....
[/quote]

All the guitarists I play with, except 1, use a Strat or Tele and go through a Fender combo.

They all sound completely different because they all have pedal boards.


Bass players seem to be more open to using different gear, but IME their sound isn't as diverse as their gear choice would suggest.

[Mornats]

I've steered away from Fenders (and as I'm sitting at the budget end, Squiers too) because I'd prefer something a little more individual to the "default" "boring" "standard" basses that you see everyone play. Kind of why I drive a Lancer rather than a Ford Focus. You don't see many on the roads. They're not as good or as refined but it's "my" car. Same with basses.

However, I've moved to a jazz copy - my Tanglewater Contemporary J4 which is a nice take on the classic J shape. Ultra-modern sound and I love it. Then I got my Tanglewater Classic J, a bit more Fender-looking, passive, sounds a bit more like a P or J and I'm gravitating towards that much more now. Heck, I'm even trawling the marketplace on here looking at Fenders because of my Classic J!

If I had the cash though, I'd be asking Chris May to make me a bass that looks identical to my trans black, flame maple-topped Contemporary J4 but with a P/J setup and passive electronics. I'd ask him to make it a little smaller, a little lighter, you know, just like a Fender...

So I think Fenders are like black holes. Sooner or later, they'll suck you in.

But I still want to stick with my Overwaters, made by Tanglewood or not, as they're my trademark bass now. First world problems eh?

[zomnius]

i own 2 cs jazz bases. Superb sounding instruments. Other manuafactorers also make superb instruments. But i think that you always have to try out several instruments before you pick your own. I think.

[chris_b]

[quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1376128938' post='2169949']
....I've steered away from Fenders (and as I'm sitting at the budget end, Squiers too) because I'd prefer something a little more individual to the "default" "boring" "standard" basses that you see everyone play....
[/quote]

Overwater's are great basses.

If the band's good then who cares what instruments they’re playing.

The rest of the band must be really dull if an audience has time to start thinking about the bass player’s “boring” bass.

[Mornats]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1376132265' post='2170003']
Overwater's are great basses.
[/quote]

Couldn't agree more. Mine are the Tanglewood made ones. I've played a classic Overwater from the 80s and it was superb, just beautiful. My Tanglewaters are hands-down better than any MiM Fender I've ever played. Not quite up to USA Fender quality (if you get a good quality one of course) but they're less than half the price.

[BenTunnicliffe]

Sounds like there is a lot of arguments for just having what you're comfortable with and we seem to all agree that the playability and inspiration that comes from the slick hand-built designs is second to none, which i agree with.

As someone mentioned on here it does seem that, however 'dull', 'boring' or 'retro' we think the Fender design is it is still somewhat expected and needs to be a part of a session player's arsenal.

Someone said as well that you COULD get a luthier to build up a carbon copy, but extended range version of an old Fender..... I hope I get to hear that happen someday! GAS.

[thodrik]

Lots of people, including many guitarists, sound engineers, music producers, listen with their eyes. They see a Fender design and immediately think 'I know how to make that sound good' compared to the 'what will that sound like?' uncertainly of a non-Fender design (in my case a Vigier). Some are even of the opinion that anything that doesn't look like a Fender isn't really a proper bass. The existence of such a stigma is cited by Roger Sadowsky as one the main reasons he stuck to Fender designs.

In the current Black Keys, Graveyard retro scene, you are pretty limited in terms of what you can use before you are considered to be using the 'wrong' bass (essentially anything that isn't a Fender, Rickenbacker or Gibson).

It is complete rubbish but I have faced it enough myself to the point that I will always bring a Precision to my first rehearsal with a band and just take it from there.