How do you assess your level?

[TimR]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1376043339' post='2168885']


What are you talking about?

Of course the English language has rules. It has rules for grammar, punctuation and many other things.

Would you describe Django Rheinhardt as a beginner because he didn't know theory?
[/quote]

Only when you write it down.

When we speak we have to know what we're speaking about.

[Skol303]

Isn't this a bit like goldfish (bear with me!), in that our abilities tend to grow in proportion the size of the 'bowl' - or the skills of the band - that we're in?

I'm not speaking from experience - it's years since I've been in a conventional band - but in other areas of life I find that I usually improve to the level of my most able peers and then 'plateau' (that is if I improve at all!).

With regards to ranking ability; to me a 'professional' player is a 'good' player who makes a living out of what they do. And a 'good' player is someone who can handle whatever is required of them with minimal preparation - be that by ear or through sight reading. 'Intermediate' implies that you require practice to achieve what a 'good' player can manage immediately (but that you'll get there eventually...), whereas a beginner is someone who requires practice to do pretty much everything - like me

[TimR]

I'm not sure. When I auditioned for the last two bands they had already auditioned several bass players. Neither band were in a position to 'help' beginners, they needed someone to learn 30/40 songs in two weeks and play confidently in front of a few hundred people.

Do you need a beginner, intermediate or advanced player for that?

Edited August 9, 2013 by TimR

[flyfisher]

[quote name='chris_b' timestamp='1376043339' post='2168885']
What are you talking about?

Of course the English language has rules. It has rules for grammar, punctuation and many other things.
[/quote]

Yes, it has loadsa rool's butt broken they can be yet be still understood and appreciated clearly, init.

[TimR]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1376047333' post='2168972']


Yes, it has loadsa rool's butt broken they can be yet be still understood and appreciated clearly, init.
[/quote]

As I say they're not rules. People look at this from completely the wrong angle and this puts a lot of people off music.

As an 8 year old I was taught formally in front of a piano with notation. I hated it. It's the wrong way to learn.

You need to learn what the notes are called and the quality of chords, the major and minor scales, together with what a 'bar' is and how time works as a bare minimum as far as theory goes before you're not a beginner.

Edited August 9, 2013 by TimR

[aende]

On bass I would place myself as 'beginner', however on 6 string guitar I would class myself as advanced....but you can get away with more on guitar.

The fingering on bass is so different and synchronizing the picking fingers to the notes on fast sections is a f*cker!

[flyfisher]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1376047617' post='2168980']
You [b]need[/b] to learn what the notes are called and the quality of chords, the major and minor scales, together with what a 'bar' is and how time works as a bare minimum as far as theory goes before you're not a beginner.
[/quote]

Need? What about all the self-taught players (of all instruments) out there who manage to create their own music? Sure, someone can come along later and write it all down with notes and chords and time signatures, but the originator must have somehow managed without all that knowledge.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ca_GCvApODg

Edited August 9, 2013 by flyfisher

[Dad3353]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1376050507' post='2169014']... the originator must have somehow managed without all that knowledge.[/quote]

...and a bloody awful racket it was, too..!

[peteb]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1376047324' post='2168970']
I'm not sure. When I auditioned for the last two bands they had already auditioned several bass players. Neither band were in a position to 'help' beginners, they needed someone to learn 30/40 songs in two weeks and play confidently in front of a few hundred people.

Do you need a beginner, intermediate or advanced player for that?
[/quote]
It sounds like they really need someone who can learn 30/40 songs in two weeks and play confidently in front of a few hundred people! Whether they need an 'advanced' player will depend on how technically difficult the songs are to play, but they will need someone good enough to cover the gig and be a 'good fit' for their band...

[TimR]

[quote name='flyfisher' timestamp='1376050507' post='2169014']


Need? ...
[/quote]

Thebrig has been playing in function bands for 7 years and claims to know no theory?

How on earth can that be possible? How do you rehearse when you can't identify a chorus from a verse, or that the mid section has 8, 16 or 32 bars, you don't know why the drummer counts to 4 at the beginning of the song, or the singer wants to change the key?

All this knowing no theory as if it's a badge to wear proudly is nonsense.

Edited August 9, 2013 by TimR

[thebrig]

'Intermediate' implies that you require practice to achieve what a 'good' player can manage immediately (but that you'll get there eventually...)

Ok, if the above is true, then "Intermediate" is definitely me!

I am auditioning for a gigging band next week, and they have picked out a few songs that they consider quite hard, so they could judge my learning, timing and overall playing ability, probably because I told them I have only been playing for a short time, and being 61, a late starter too.
In a way, it prompted me to ask the question about how to describe your playing level.

So I’ve just spent the past 2 hours learning Flea’s bassline to Under The Bridge, and I have to confess that I was thinking “I will never be able to do it justice”, but 2 hours later, I can now play it all the way through practically note for note, and with near-perfect timing too.

Because of my lack of musical knowledge, all I could do was to play along with the song until I nailed it, I suppose it is a bit “parrot” fashion, but it’s the only way I can do it, and as Skol303 said, “I got there eventually".

[Dad3353]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1376052497' post='2169049']...you don't know why the drummer counts to 4 at the beginning of the song...[/quote]

A good point. Why, indeed, do I count to 4 at the beginning of each song..? Hmmm...

[thebrig]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1376052497' post='2169049']


Thebrig has been playing in function bands for 7 years and claims to know no theory?

How on earth can that be possible? How do you rehearse when you can't identify a chorus from a verse, or that the mid section has 8, 16 or 32 bars, you don't know why the drummer counts to 4 at the beginning of the song, or the singer wants to change the key?

All this knowing no theory as if it's a badge to wear proudly is nonsense.
[/quote]I suppose I must do then, but what I really mean is, I have never been taught theory, had lessons, never learnt to read music, and have never really read any books properly on the subject.

All I've ever done was to be taught a few chords when I was about 10, by my 12 year old friend who was learning himself. I never bothered after that, as I was more into trying to become a professional footballer, and yes, I failed at that too sadly, I eventually started playing again seven years ago at the age of 54

Any theory I do know must have been picked up along the way, but I can honestly say that I don't think about what I'm playing in a theoretical way, what I play just sort of happens, if that makes sense.

[TimR]

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1376053932' post='2169081']
I suppose I must do then,

...

Any theory I do know must have been picked up along the way, but I can honestly say that I don't think about what I'm playing in a theoretical way, what I play just sort of happens, if that makes sense.
[/quote]

Exactly my point.

Just because someone has not sat down and formally studied from books doesn't mean you don't know theory.

A five year old child understands the 'theory' or 'rules' (if you like) of English. They've never read a book but they know the alphabet and what words sound like and mean.

Theory isn't rules to be followed, it came after the music to explain why what you play works and to enable you to communicate to other musicians more simply. It's not there to tell you what to play.

Edited August 9, 2013 by TimR

[flyfisher]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1376052497' post='2169049']
Thebrig has been playing in function bands for 7 years and claims to know no theory?

How on earth can that be possible? How do you rehearse when you can't identify a chorus from a verse, or that the mid section has 8, 16 or 32 bars, you don't know why the drummer counts to 4 at the beginning of the song, or the singer wants to change the key?

All this knowing no theory as if it's a badge to wear proudly is nonsense.
[/quote]

There are plenty of 'non musical' people who can tell a chorus from a verse and sing along to their favourite songs. They can also count a 1,2,3,4 intro as well. Now, whether we call that natural musical instinct or suggest that they understand musical theory is a moot point.

At the risk of getting into bongobongo territory, how much musical theory would 'primitive' native people have understood? Yet they somehow managed to develop a rich musical culture. We can then come along and analyse what they have created out of thin air and describe their music in terms of notes and chords and timings and we can then write it all down for posterity, all of which is a good thing, but it wasn't necessary that the originators understood it all was it? They did it by instinct and they passed their songs down the generations by simply playing them for the next generation to learn

So, you can teach someone to play a song by showing them what to do on the instrument and how to sing the melody and they'll not know what notes or chords they are playing.

Or, you can give them some sheet music and teach them how to interpret it.

I can't really see than one method is particularly superior to the other.


And it's not so much a case of knowing no theory as a 'badge of honour', just accepting the reality of things.

[KevB]

A good rule of thumb is to go to a well attended bass bash and check out how many players are better than you are. I'd been playing a while when I went to my first one and I expected to about upper 'fourth division' to use old football system parlance but once I'd been hanging around a while and listening I quickly regraded myself to Sunday morning dog and duck league standard.

[DarkHeart]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1376055242' post='2169100']
A good rule of thumb is to go to a well attended bass bash and check out how many players are better than you are. I'd been playing a while when I went to my first one and I expected to about upper 'fourth division' to use old football system parlance but once I'd been hanging around a while and listening I quickly regraded myself to Sunday morning dog and duck league standard.
[/quote]

going by this rule of thumb im probably a wednesday night 5 a side kick about i do what i do and get by but i do think im improving now im having to learn other peoples lines.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1376055242' post='2169100']
A good rule of thumb is to go to a well attended bass bash and check out how many players are better than you are. I'd been playing a while when I went to my first one and I expected to about upper 'fourth division' to use old football system parlance but once I'd been hanging around a while and listening I quickly regraded myself to Sunday morning dog and duck league standard.
[/quote]

As I suggested earlier, there's more to it than being an eyeball-melting slapper. :-)

[Dad3353]

[quote name='thebrig' timestamp='1376052860' post='2169056']...Because of my lack of musical knowledge, all I could do was to play along with the song until I nailed it...[/quote]

...and it's here that thing's begin to take a different turn...

You're doing fine (indeed, more than 'fine'; I'm 63 and I've still not 'nailed' bass playing...). I'm not very familiar with 'Under the Bridge' (it's in our repertoire, but I play drums..!); our son on bass has never studied, either, and we play it just fine (modestly, of course...). I would suspect, however, that our friend Flea, when playing this, does not play 'parrot fashion', as he knows how the song is constructed and arranged, and is able to take liberties with it. A different run, a change in accent, an improvised rendering comes easy for those that have the knowledge. The more one knows, the more one may 'play around' with these songs, not simply repeating what's on the disk (although that, in itself, is sometimes no mean feat, I'll grant...).
To play a decent bass part for an 'ordinary' pop song is not rocket science (it's not Stravinsky, for the most part, anyway...), so one does not need a master in Musicology to improvise over a 12-bar blues. Nevertheless, the more one has knowledge (from study, or experience, both, or more still...) the better one can play that there blues (and more, of course...). Carry on, lad, you're doing well, but it won't make you a worse player to read up (quietly, feet up...) on some of the theoretic aspects. It all helps, even if we're not likely to become virtuose (that's certainly my case, anyway...).

[andydye]

It's all semi-meaningless comparison based on a need to be measurably better than someone isn't it?

I'm good enough that I can play whatever I'm asked to play (sometimes a little effort is required) and regularly play with musicians who I would rate much higher than me...

...decide what you think you are and go along to a few auditions for that level or the one above and see how the other musicians there compare to your perception?

[KevB]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1376055581' post='2169110']
As I suggested earlier, there's more to it than being an eyeball-melting slapper. :-)
[/quote]

Indeed, but then the particular bass bash that I'm thinking of (would have been a bassworld one I guess, one of the early Northampton gatherings long before they went regional) was thankfully fairly short of manic plank spanking. People like Dood who made me seriously consider just giving it up as a bad job

[borisbrain]

My two cents-worth...

Maybe the categories need to be redefined. A beginner, to me, is someone who says "ooh, what's this plank of wood with cables on? Look - it makes noise!" whereas the experts are people who say "My name is Geddy Lee/Jaco Pastorius/Pino Palladino/Mark King and you *will* buy my signature bass/amp/T-shirt/book/mug/underpants". In between you get hobbyists, band members, semi-pro and pro. The difference between these middle few is very subjective.

There are/have been plenty of pros who can barely play a note (Sid Vicious springs to mind), and a lot of undiscovered geniuses (genii?) in pub/function bands who rarely make much money or busk all day on the underground. Luck, looks, charisma and management play their parts along with ability.

And finally there's the difference between being able to play along to a great bass-line and actually being able to create one. I play 40-odd gigs a year in a covers band (including Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick) to much praise, so I guess you could call me semi-pro. But I have the relatively easy job of playing something that somebody else created. Recently however I was asked to put some bass lines over a friend's original toons and I was struggling to come up with something original.

BB

[Conan]

[quote name='KevB' timestamp='1376055242' post='2169100']
A good rule of thumb is to go to a well attended bass bash and check out how many players are better than you are.[/quote]

Up to a point, yes. Some people are very good at showing off their chops in front of others. I personally am not. When I warm up at a band rehearsal or play/practise at home I am pretty happy with what I can play. But for some reason, put me in a room with other bass players (even just one of them!) and I am suddenly bereft of ideas and can't think what to play!! I feel very self-conscious. If those other players were to judge my playing on that basis, then they would definitely put me in the "beginner" category!!

I'm just not a natural show-off I guess!

Edited August 9, 2013 by Conan

[KevB]

Yep, fair comment Conan. We've all looked at youtube clips of technically gifted bedroom noodlers and wondered if they can really pull it off in front of the sweaty mob on a Saturday night under the hot lights. Well, it keeps me going anyway

Edited August 9, 2013 by KevB

[BassTractor]

[quote name='TimR' timestamp='1376054644' post='2169093']
Exactly my point.

Just because someone has not sat down and formally studied from books doesn't mean you don't know theory.

A five year old child understands the 'theory' or 'rules' (if you like) of English. They've never read a book but they know the alphabet and what words sound like and mean.

Theory isn't rules to be followed, it came after the music to explain why what you play works and to enable you to communicate to other musicians more simply. It's not there to tell you what to play.
[/quote]


Great point, well worded IMHO.

best,
bert