Even the best luthiers have their off-days...

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1376391914' post='2173143']
His rebuttal on TB in the face of a lynch-mob is pretty strongly worded and may not be the most PR-friendly way to respond but I can imagine how he felt on discovering that there was a tirade of abuse being fired at him in such a public way and from a bunch of people who'd obviously decided to hang him out to dry.
[/quote]

Barrie - I appreciate you know the guy personally and on a business level, which gives you a far better perspective then pretty much everyone in this discussion (and across on TB). I'm sure he's a lovely guy with a real passion for what he does.

But surely you can acknowledge that the outcry from the community has been pretty understandable, given that one of their own has been sold a $5000 lemon, and then had the shutters pulled down on any resolution? Do you think the OP should have just 'sucked it up', to use a phrase from across the pond, which is what would have happened if 'the lynch mob' hadn't got involved?

Jimmy had a chance to put things right, and he didn't. Now he has to deal with the fall-out.

(Of course none of this includes threats, personal stuff and bad words, none of which are acceptable IMO)

[molan]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1376393522' post='2173180']


Barrie - I appreciate you know the guy personally and on a business level, which gives you a far better perspective then pretty much everyone in this discussion (and across on TB). I'm sure he's a lovely guy with a real passion for what he does.

But surely you can acknowledge that the outcry from the community has been pretty understandable, given that one of their own has been sold a $5000 lemon, and then had the shutters pulled down on any resolution? Do you think the OP should have just 'sucked it up', to use a phrase from across the pond, which is what would have happened if 'the lynch mob' hadn't got involved?

Jimmy had a chance to put things right, and he didn't. Now he has to deal with the fall-out.

(Of course none of this includes threats, personal stuff and bad words, none of which are acceptable IMO)
[/quote]

I agree on all counts

I do feel sorry for him in the way he was attacked (and is still being attacked in a different thread after the original one was closed on TB).

I don't think his reply did him a lot of favours but he is the kind of guy who shoots from the hip. He was obviously upset and felt aggrieved about all the people taking a pop at him and decided to fight back.

I also don't think that makes him a bad person (as many on TB are now making out), nor do I think it means that all of his instruments are "crap" and that people should never buy one again (which has also been said on TB). He's just bursting with passion and says what he thinks - doing this in public has obviously, and understandably, upset some people.

As it happens I know there's a new one of his basses heading over to the UK very soon and I'm more excited to see / play it than many that have come in recently

[ezbass]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1376391253' post='2173121']


I know that bass

It was a show demo item and had flaws in the final build and, most noticeably, the blocks were aligned in an odd way.

[/quote]A show bass with flaws in the the final build? A ridiculous state of affairs. A show is a place where you should be going, "Look at me! See how good I am." not knocking something out on the quick, which the bass on TB looks like. For a guy who apparently loves what he does, and charges a large wodge of cah for it, he seems to have an odd take on how things are supposed to be done. Business is business and given the current debacle, plus this nugget of info, JC needs to take a course in how to run a manufacturing and service company.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1376389846' post='2173091']
If you're the Ferrari of the bass world, the only type in this list should be A

That's part of the reason people are willing to pay £3300 for one of your instruments.
[/quote]

I've seen more arrogant/aggressive businesses/businessmen in the world of music and instrument making than I expected, so the B option is unfortunately quite common.

[molan]

[quote name='ezbass' timestamp='1376395608' post='2173239']
A show bass with flaws in the the final build? A ridiculous state of affairs. A show is a place where you should be going, "Look at me! See how good I am." not knocking something out on the quick, which the bass on TB looks like.
[/quote]

Show instruments are often 'B' stock - things that look good in passing but may have cosmetic or minor construction flaws.

I think some of this may be because manufacturers know they are going to be badly treated by potential customers at shows and they don't want their best stuff damaged.

Jens Ritter is one of the few guys that always builds something really special for each major show he's at. He guards them with his life though and makes sure they are incredibly well looked after.

In general terms I don't have a problem with people selling ex-show stock so long as they clearly let customers know that things have been used and are not new and/or have cosmetic flaws.

E.G. I sold a Yamaha last weekend that was ex-show and had some buckle rash on the rear and a few slap-swirls on the guard. It was discounted by something like £1,000 and the marks were very clearly shown to the customer when he bought it.

Unfortunately not all people own up about ex-show stock. This is often especially true about amps & cabs. I know there's stuff out there for sale that's been played at blisteringly loud volumes at shows like LBGS but is being sold as 'brand new' stock.

I'll have to back off on continually defending Jimmy I guess as I have a personal bias here but when I've spoken to him about some of his show stock in the past he's always said that he's happy to sell them with the cosmetic flaws because it means people can get an instrument that maybe they couldn't have afforded.

That was exactly how he explained the one with the misaligned blocks to me. He totally accepted it was a mistake and it wasn't something he would let out the door on a new customer build. This particular one was built purely to demo a new pickup and pre-amp configuration for an electronics manufacturer. Even the wood and neck were specifically chosen to match their tonal requirements. It was never rally designed to be sold but it came back from the show and someone really wanted to buy it and they weren't concerned about the cosmetic flaws at the time.

So - my tip is to be very careful if you see anything that's ex-show (especially NAMM) from any manufacturer. There are some really nice show instruments out there but also there will be some with more than a bit of player wear. Of course, if the price is discounted to take that into account then it's fine

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1376394148' post='2173198']
I don't think his reply did him a lot of favours but he is the kind of guy who shoots from the hip. He was obviously upset and felt aggrieved about all the people taking a pop at him and decided to fight back.
[/quote]

"fight back"? He accused the guy of photoshopping the flaws in the bass for goodness sake. Being passionate about your instruments is not an excuse for spouting utter crap. You cannot conduct yourself like that in a public forum and expect anything other than a hiding. All he had to do was say "sorry, there was a miscommunication about the condition of the bass" and most people (trolls and hotheads aside) would have been satisfied. Instead he decided to come up with some poorly written unjustifiable nonsense which has just made matters worse. The lynch mob on TB isn't responsible for what JC decides to say in public.

I don't think that this incident means that all of his instruments are bad, but that doesn't excuse the fact that in this particular situation his business skills were found sorely lacking.

[Dingus]

I think it's important to point out that Jimmy Coppollo is a native New Yorker , and people from that city have a tendency to speak plainly and stick up for themselves in situations like this one , so that accounts for why some people would perceive his response as being slightly agressive , shall we say . As I pointed out yesterday , there are two sides to this story , and everybody on Talkbass has immidiately accepted the plaintiffs version of events almost without question . Jimmy has been subject to the modern phenomena of "trial by internet " and been found guilty in his abscence , without even having a chance to state his case . I can understand why he would feel a bit defensive .

I have never met Jimmy but I know a couple of folks who have and they like him a lot and would vouch for his honesty and integrity , I am sure . From the outset , I have been a little bit sceptical about some of the buyers version of events for a few reasons , but primarily because this isn't a business that attracts fly-by-night rip off merchants . Building quality basses is a labour of love that has scant rewards except the satisfaction that comes from doing a good job . If Jimmy Coppollo was a dishonest man he would have found a much more lucrative way to inflict that on people a long time ago . Instead , what we have here is a difference in the interpretation of events and what the agreed contract was between the two parties . It is quite conceivable ( indeed , it looks most likely ) that , whatever the apparent condition of the bass , that Jimmy Coppollo was genuinely and sincerely under the impression that the customer was happy and indeed even eager , to pay $5000 for this rare and special bass even in its' current state . That difference in estimation between the buyer and seller of the value of the builder's work is not in itself a crime or act of dishonesty .

Edited August 13, 2013 by Dingus

[Josh]

Isn't Ken Smith notorious for his apparently bad customer relations?

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1376396480' post='2173261']
Instead , what we have here is a difference in the interpretation of events and what the agreed contract was between the two parties . It is quite conceivable ( indeed , it looks most likely ) that , whatever the apparent condition of the bass , that Jimmy Coppollo was genuinely and sincerely under the impression that the customer was happy and indeed even eager , to pay $5000 for this rare and special bass even in its' current state . That difference in estimation between the buyer and seller of the value of the builder's work is not in itself a crime or act of dishonesty .
[/quote]

Does this look like it could be a $5000 bass with "[i]scratches or dings that more than likely will happen on the first few gigs[/i]"..?

[xilddx]

[quote name='ezbass' timestamp='1376395608' post='2173239']
A show bass with flaws in the the final build? A ridiculous state of affairs. A show is a place where you should be going, "Look at me! See how good I am." not knocking something out on the quick, which the bass on TB looks like. For a guy who apparently loves what he does, and charges a large wodge of cah for it, he seems to have an odd take on how things are supposed to be done. Business is business and given the current debacle, plus this nugget of info, JC needs to take a course in how to run a manufacturing and service company.
[/quote]

I completely agree. You build a substandard bass and take it to a show??!! And then sell it for FIVE f***ing GRAND??!! Where the f*** did he find THAT business model?

There was small a guitar company I read about in Guitarist probably 8 years ago, can't remember the name, but they looked good and unusual. I tried one in a shop and it was glorious! It felt superb to play and sounded lovely. But it wasn't the shape and colour I wanted and they were about a grand. So I visited their stand at a guitar show in Olympia. They had a display guitar at the front of their stand. The strings were all to cock having a mis-aligned bridge. Looked like a typical 1970s 3-bolt Fender Jazz with the strings hanging off one side of the neck. I had a look around the stand but I was disturbed by this and didn't play any of the guitars. I thought of pointing it out but thought better of it. I visited a shop in Denmark Street a couple of months later that had a whole bunch of them (I'd forgotten about this brand by this time), I played one but it was dirty and the strings were old and dead and corroding. That was the end of that. I've had a whole bunch of guitars since then and I've ended up with a Deluxe USA Strat which I love. Builders who don't pay attention to their own business lose a lot of business. Fender and Gibson will mop up for them even thought their QC is often highly suspect.

[JTUK]

If it were me who had built a stellar reputation on build QC, finish etc etc ... then even as a one man show, there must be standards that are kept to.
Below that standard..for whatever reason, you cannot allow a sub standard bass..or anything else to carry your name as the proper article.
It is hard to track what others may or may not do to the product, but we aren't talking about a bitza Fender here.
All these types of basses, should have a audit log, or service type history thing.....lots of admin, I know, but it can protect a HARD won name.
At the very least, if the unstrument was known to have flaws, he should have either written it off or stamped in some way as
B stock, etc etc ...

Easier said than done, but we are taking TOP name and product here hopefully.

I was also concerned about wrongly applied/wonky blocks etc .. AUIU ..?? so that paints a less falttering picture.
The thing with basses of this ilk...is that that just cannot be an acceptable factor..

I am talking generally here as I haven't gone looking for the pics of the bass concerned, just pointing out that min standards on a premium product have to be very high, still. IMO.

Otherwise, what is the name worth..??


...........
Opps..just seen some pictures ... !!!

As for one-ma show..??? does the finishes as well..???
That is a LOT of a skill set to master...!!
I know one finisher who handles quite a few names and he is good... I can't even see what he is looking at, let alone rejecting..!!! But then he ain't cheap either, so you pay that money as the product warrants it.

Edited August 13, 2013 by JTUK

[Mr. Foxen]

What's with the 'I wouldn't expect this from a Chinese bass'? Course you wouldn't, when did you ever see a Chinese bass with major finish flaws? I've turned over dozens of sub £100 basses and not found issues close to that level, its always the US made stuff with the massive finish issues.

[CHRISDABASS]

The worst part for me was when jimmy said he would take the bass back, respray the body and then it would increase in value....

I think he's lost it!

[BigRedX]

It doesn't take a genius to realise that there are only two ways that this could have ended. Either with JC taking the bass back and offering a complete refund or in court.

If that really is him replying (and since it hasn't been refuted on TalkBass and taken down I can only assume that it is) then it one of the most ill-concieved things ever. He should have simply contacted the buyer privately done a refund and got the OP to post that the matter had been resolved. Getting involved in the public debate was never going to be productive and what he did say made an already bad situation worse.

If one of my favourite luthiers had behaved like this, I doubt I'd be defending them unless I know ALL the facts and would more likely feeling somewhat embarrassed at the whole situation.

As for show quality instruments. They should be the pinnacle of the luthier's craft. Not something jobbed out just to look good. They might get a lot of use over the course of a show, but every person who picks one up is potential customer maybe getting their first impressions of the instruments. I too have had the misfortune to play some well-regarded expensive instruments at shows and have been less than impressed with what was presented. As a result instead of maybe ordering one for myself, I've gone away and bought something else instead.

[Dad3353]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1376397037' post='2173276']
Does this look like it could be a $5000 bass with "[i]scratches or dings that more than likely will happen on the first few gigs[/i]"..?

[/quote]

Dunno, really, if it's that bad; maybe a trick of the light..?

[attachment=141454:addison_ac-problems_012.jpg]

Disclaimer: heavily modified picture, using 'Paint'. Used here solely for comic effect (albeit possibly bad taste...).

[ezbass]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1376396421' post='2173258']
So - my tip is to be very careful if you see anything that's ex-show (especially NAMM) from any manufacturer. There are some really nice show instruments out there but also there will be some with more than a bit of player wear. Of course, if the price is discounted to take that into account then it's fine
[/quote]Good knowledge, thanks for sharing that.

[quote name='Dad3353' timestamp='1376398529' post='2173309']
Dunno, really, if it's that bad; maybe a trick of the light..?

[/quote]I wondered that, but other shots of the rib contour show the same wonky cutaway outline.

[fretmeister]

I own a couple of silly money basses, and if I was ever in the market again I will not be buying one of his instruments. I have played one and I did like it, and I recognise that everyone has an off day.

But the mark of a professional is to quickly admit mistakes and deal with them. Not throw around accusations that cannot be supported.

The accusations of photoshopping does it for me. Very poor approach indeed.

[Conan]

It's difficult when you see someone of your acquaintance being pilloried in public. But to those people defending Mr Coppollo, how would you feel if you bought a bass from the for sale section on this website, and it arrived in this condition? Particularly if the seller more or less said "tough - it's your problem now mate!".

It is also a bit strange that he has a "no refunds" policy, but then offers a refund.

Much though I hate the "trial by internet", sometimes a situation such as this one brings valuable information into the public eye. It reveals a lot about both parties - but only as much as they allow us to see. It never represents the "full story". As such, we should be very careful in making judgements.

[Conan]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1376401313' post='2173354']
The accusations of photoshopping does it for me. Very poor approach indeed.
[/quote]

On the face of it, I totally agree. However, it would seem that there is some "previous" between these two parties. At the very least it sounds as though Mr Addison approached Mr Coppollo in the past seeking employment or professional involvement of some description. As far as we know, there may be some historical bad blood between them.

[Dingus]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1376397037' post='2173276']
Does this look like it could be a $5000 bass with "[i]scratches or dings that more than likely will happen on the first few gigs[/i]"..?








[/quote]

Well , that description is open to interpretation , that is my point . The maxim of "let the buyer beware " comes to mind . I am not saying that this is a bass in good repair , but a lot depends on how Jimmy represented the bass to the customer and what was understood by his description . If someone contacts you and says " I want that spalted alder bass really badly , can you help me with that ? ", as apparently happened in this case , then you are entitled as a vendor to try and extract a premium price for your goods . All these comments about "how can you charge $5000 for that piece of junk "are wide of the mark . The same folks should be asking " how can you [u][i]pay[/i] [/u]$5000 for that piece of junk ? " . No one put a gun to the fellas head and forced him to contact Jimmy Coppollo about buying that bass . Jimmy had an enthusuiastic buyer for a one-off bass and had a right to try and get a good price considering those circumstances . The discrepancy comes in what is meant by play wear and dings . With hindsight , the buyer should have asked for detailed photos , but hindsight is always 20/20 , as we all know . Maybe Jimmy understated the wear to the bass , and , again , with the balance of hindsight would descibe it differently . The fact that he has offered a full refund probably reflects that .

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1376402170' post='2173371']
Maybe Jimmy understated the wear to the bass...
[/quote]

Those poorly executed routs aren't 'wear'!

Regardless of how the bass was described, why the hell did a respected luthier even sell a bass that would appear to be, at best, a 'B' grade instrument?

I have no axe to grind with any one and I am pleased that all seems to be resolved but if your job/vocation is producing boutique instruments at premium prices then you should (IMHO) not be letting anything like that out of your workshop. What would it have taken for JC to have looked the bass over and thought, 'Ooof there are a few rough edges here, I'd better get it back on the sander and sort that out'? Just asking!

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1376402170' post='2173371']


Well , that description is open to interpretation , that is my point . The maxim of "let the buyer beware " comes to mind . I am not saying that this is a bass in good repair , but a lot depends on how Jimmy represented the bass to the customer and what was understood by his description . If someone contacts you and says " I want that spalted alder bass really badly , can you help me with that ? ", as apparently happened in this case , then you are entitled as a vendor to try and extract a premium price for your goods . All these comments about "how can you charge $5000 for that piece of junk "are wide of the mark . The same folks should be asking " how can you [u][i]pay[/i] [/u]$5000 for that piece of junk ? " . No one put a gun to the fellas head and forced him to contact Jimmy Coppollo about buying that bass . Jimmy had an enthusuiastic buyer for a one-off bass and had a right to try and get a good price considering those circumstances . The discrepancy comes in what is meant by play wear and dings . With hindsight , the buyer should have asked for detailed photos , but hindsight is always 20/20 , as we all know . Maybe Jimmy understated the wear to the bass , and , again , with the balance of hindsight would descibe it differently . The fact that he has offered a full refund probably reflects that .
[/quote]

As far as I'm aware, the 'couple of gigs' worth of wear' comment was a direct quote from JC.

You couldn't do that amount of wear in a few gigs unless - as one wag commented on TB - you are a gorilla wearing a suit made of sandpaper.

[Dingus]

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1376402580' post='2173384']
Those poorly executed routs aren't 'wear'!

Regardless of how the bass was described, why the hell did a respected luthier even sell a bass that would appear to be, at best, a 'B' grade instrument?

I have no axe to grind with any one and I am pleased that all seems to be resolved but if your job/vocation is producing boutique instruments at premium prices then you should (IMHO) not be letting anything like that out of your workshop. What would it have taken for JC to have looked the bass over and thought, 'Ooof there are a few rough edges here, I'd better get it back on the sander and sort that out'? Just asking!
[/quote]

The answer to your question is " because someone was desperate to buy it " . Presumably , Jimmy was making the assumption that those things are not that important to some people .

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1376402866' post='2173397']
The answer to your question is " because someone was desperate to buy it " . Presumably , Jimmy was making the assumption that those things are not that important to some people .
[/quote]

'If' that is the case then in my book that makes him despicable as opposed to someone making a single poor judgement call. I realise that it is your take on the situation and may well not be JC's reasoning for what happened but taking advantage of someone or a situation (i.e. someone desperate to get a particular instrument; lefties being particularly difficult to come by) as you describe, is beyond the pale.

[Dingus]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1376402736' post='2173392']
As far as I'm aware, the 'couple of gigs' worth of wear' comment was a direct quote from JC.

You couldn't do that amount of wear in a few gigs unless - as one wag commented on TB - you are a gorilla wearing a suit made of sandpaper.
[/quote]

As I said , the comments and descriptions are open to interpretation .

Let me be clear , I have no vested interest in defending Jimmy Coppollo , or much interest in his basses , but there seems to be an evangelical zeal to rubbish the guy because he has tried to sell a bass to an apparently willing customer . To me , the buyer seems just at much at fault . All this stuff about " how can you sell a bass like that for so much money ? " is bullshit . What gives any goods their value is arbitrary . The question is whether JC deliberately misrepresented the goods to the customer , and as I have already pointed out , [u]we only have the buyers side of the story[/u] . That is not likely to be the most objective version of events . In any such circumstances . there is such a thing as lying by omission .