Even the best luthiers have their off-days...

[Musicman20]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1376580542' post='2176410']
I wanted to love Sadowskys but I was consistently underwhelmed with 80% of ones I've tried, both NYC and Metro. I even swung by the new shop in Queens a few months back. Some lovely stuff but almost nothing to justify me spending. The exception are the (relatively) new Will Lee models with the mid boost. Really helped the preamp along and so easy to play.

Mike Lull stuff is doing it for me at the moment.
[/quote]

Ay, this is no criticism of the Metro basses, (and the elecs are almost the same are can be exactly the same) but I found the Metro's I tried to be a bit 'dry' and not that exciting, BUT, this was a few years back, and the shop had them hanging next to bright sunshine in the middle of summer. They probably weren't wearing the best strings etc etc. I still like Sadowsky basses no matter what to be honest; Roger just has a way with aesthetics and quality that pleases me.

Lull's look great, but I personally would get a Sadowsky.

[HazBeen]

As a premium builder in a market where there is a lot of competition (Lull, Sadowsky, FBass, Suhr etc etc) you simply cannot afford to give no customer service and to be frank the whole story seems hard to believe because of it. IMO

Two things that can be taken from this, never buy a really expensive bass without seeing it first and never buy a really expensive bass

[risingson]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1376582953' post='2176478']
Lull's look great, but I personally would get a Sadowsky.
[/quote]

The basses that blew me out the water when I was last in NYC were the Pensas coming out of Rudy's. Their preamp was much less harsh than the Sadowsky stuff, more naturally voiced. The quality of them was exceptional in fact.

[stingrayPete1977]

They all look like fender jazz basses with slightly different head stocks to me, dull

[risingson]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1376583854' post='2176492']
They all look like fender jazz basses with slightly different head stocks to me, dull
[/quote]

I like Stingrays too but there are companies that breathe their own life into a classic instrument from time to time.

[molan]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1376560706' post='2175908']
Ay, tiring thread. Hopefully the OP now had the funds on the way back to him, and he can plan his next purchase!

For THAT kind of money, I'd be straight onto Roger Sadowsky for a custom 5 string. Guaranteed it will be perfect.
[/quote]

Not in my experience - and when I had the temerity to question the quality and explain that there were issues I was told that I was simply 'wrong' and these things did not happen on Sadowsky instruments.

I didn't bother to 'forum' this problem (which really was quite bad) and simply paid for a local luthier to fix it. Surprise, surprise a year or so late my non-existent problem was quietly fixed by Sadowsky on all new instruments. . .

[molan]

In terms of demand I've found it interesting that I've had no less than 4 people contact me over the past 24 hours trying to by an Alleva Coppolo - all prompted by the various forum stories both here and in the US.

General take-out has been that the bass in question was a one-off but that everything else about them sounds really good. . .

[thisnameistaken]

They do say there's one born every minute.

[molan]

Woo hoo - and another very firm enquiry in my mail this morning. Someone after a new 5 string because they've heard that no-one makes a 5'er that really sounds like one of Jimmy's basses.

It just happens that there's a brand new one ready for shipping too

Should be on its way today with any luck.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1376608495' post='2176925']
In terms of demand I've found it interesting that I've had no less than 4 people contact me over the past 24 hours trying to by an Alleva Coppolo - all prompted by the various forum stories both here and in the US.

General take-out has been that the bass in question was a one-off but that everything else about them sounds really good. . .
[/quote]

Is that from you personally or through the shop?

Maybe they feel safer dealing with someone who isn't Jimmy.

[molan]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1376641115' post='2177112']


Is that from you personally or through the shop?

Maybe they feel safer dealing with someone who isn't Jimmy.
[/quote]

Both

To be honest most people don't really take much interest in the luthier - they're just looking for a good instrument that suits their playing and music.

People generally only ask about country of manufacture and rarely care about the builders involved.

This doesn't mean they aren't any less discerning, just that they aren't particularly interested in all the background stuff.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1376608495' post='2176925']
In terms of demand I've found it interesting that I've had no less than 4 people contact me over the past 24 hours trying to by an Alleva Coppolo - all prompted by the various forum stories both here and in the US.
[/quote]

Drat! Others have finally realised that, in the future, pre-TB-meltdown Alleva-Coppolo basses will command a premium, just like pre-CBS Fenders.

I was hoping to corner the market ...

[BigRedX]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1376641498' post='2177120']
Both

To be honest most people don't really take much interest in the luthier - they're just looking for a good instrument that suits their playing and music.

People generally only ask about country of manufacture and rarely care about the builders involved.

This doesn't mean they aren't any less discerning, just that they aren't particularly interested in all the background stuff.
[/quote]

Tell me honestly, if that particular bass had come into the shop in the condition that it appears to be in from the photos and video posted would you have tried to sell it? Or would it have been send straight back to Jimmy asking WTF he was playing at?

I also find it strange in this day and age people still ask about the country of manufacture. I suppose for high volume factory made instruments it's still important, but I believe that for "hand made" luthier basses surely the person who made them is far more important that the country they come from?

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1376642352' post='2177144']
Tell me honestly, if that particular bass had come into the shop in the condition that it appears to be in from the photos and video posted would you have tried to sell it? Or would it have been send straight back to Jimmy asking WTF he was playing at?
[/quote]

It could have happened, too:

[quote name="Jimmy Coppolo"]The only way I can possibly consider issuing a refund is if I find another buyer for the bass. I will reach out to all my dealers and distributors this afternoon to see if any of them will buy the bass. ([url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f8/my-horrible-alleva-coppolo-experience-1006426/#post14713848"]source[/url])[/quote]

[Legion]

I certainly felt sorry for the OP over on Talkbass - having handed over 5k and got that I would be disappointed to say the least. In that sort of price bracket my expectation is that I am paying for the skill of a craftsman, someone who cares about what they do and takes great pride in their work. I think buying an ex-demo or even worse, made (in a massive rush) for NAMM bass unseen is very unwise but he clearly did it based on his trust in Jimmys reputation.
Either way, it is perfectly fair to say we all have our off days and mistakes can go unseen under pressure etc. This is where customer service shines. Personally I am disgusted with Jimmys response. I am a person who could afford to buy an AC and have often considered it. I'm very lucky to have had the chance of trialling an AC and based on that I was considerably put off. Nice bass, but not built with the quality and attention to detail I would expect in order to justify me spending that much of MY money.

I can't imagine me ever being tempted by one again. I don't think I'm the only one though, and its foolish to assume that everyone who feels this way must all be trolls who are not rich enough to join this luxury club.

[Conan]

[quote name='Legion' timestamp='1376643151' post='2177162'] Its foolish to assume that everyone who feels this way must all be trolls who are not rich enough to join this luxury club.
[/quote]

Damn right. I am getting rather frustrated with this attitude. "Why don't all you plebs just shut up, as you aren't rich and discerning enough to deserve one of [i]Jimmy's[/i] basses anyway..." or words to that effect.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1376645780' post='2177200']


Damn right. I am getting rather frustrated with this attitude. "Why don't all you plebs just shut up, as you aren't rich and discerning enough to deserve one of [i]Jimmy's[/i] basses anyway..." or words to that effect.
[/quote]
Yep I'd go with that too, you can see from lots of peoples gear lists here that they have chosen not to buy an expensive bass but rather a few or more at lower prices but you do get a wiff of snobbery with these so called high end basses. I had around 7 grands worth of rays not that long ago, I just like them! I have played almost every brand going other than dingwall and Ritter so far, none were any better built than my classic5.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1376642352' post='2177144']
Tell me honestly, if that particular bass had come into the shop in the condition that it appears to be in from the photos and video posted would you have tried to sell it? Or would it have been send straight back to Jimmy asking WTF he was playing at?
[/quote]

A really good question.

[molan]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1376642352' post='2177144']
Tell me honestly, if that particular bass had come into the shop in the condition that it appears to be in from the photos and video posted would you have tried to sell it? Or would it have been send straight back to Jimmy asking WTF he was playing at?

I also find it strange in this day and age people still ask about the country of manufacture. I suppose for high volume factory made instruments it's still important, but I believe that for "hand made" luthier basses surely the person who made them is far more important that the country they come from?
[/quote]

I'll answer the second one first as it's easier

Very customers in the shop show much interest in the luthiers that make any of the custom instruments. This is just as true for Ritter, Fodera, F Bass, Zon as it is for Alleva Coppolo. I find the instrument background fascinating and I know lots of history about each of them and what sort of people they are and how they operate etc. However it wouldn't be the first time I've watched someone's eyes glaze over if I'm explaining about the history and the builder. In fact the most common question about all the customs is about why they are so expensive and there's always some sort of view that the luthiers must be very well off (have you ever met a luthier who's well off - just doesn't happen!).

Lots of people are really, really picky about country of manufacture. Some won't even look at an instrument that wasn't made in the USA. Made in the UK is often a deterrent as well. Canada also seen as 'not as good as a real American' bass too (someone said this to me just last week).

In terms of selling a used show instrument I have to say it's a lot trickier. . .

We try to check every single thing on every single bass that comes in but some stuff will always slip through the net. An obvious example is that we always check all electronics are working properly and without crackles etc. We don't routinely take control cavities apart unless we've identified a problem in the controls. To the best of my knowledge we've only ever sent one bass out that had a control cavity issue and we've learnt from that to make sure we assess pre-owned instruments to a higher degree than something new.

Standard policy on anything pre-owned, ex-demo or show stock is to explain in as much detail as possible every single thing we can about the instrument. As an example we took in a pre-owned F Bass this week and it shows a lot of player wear. Some of which looked different from what we might expect. We detailed all of this to a prospective buyer in another country and spoke to F Bass. They remembered the bass and said it had a minor flaw in cosmetic build and this was corrected by adding a, very classy, pinstripe. There was nothing wrong sturcturally with the bass and it sounds great. They'd told the original purchaser, and reduced price accordingly, but it's been through a few hands and this information had slowly been lost from the bass' history. The wear marks we'd identified are simply where the pinstriping has been worn away in places. We explained all this to the customer and there are pictures showing the wear marks. Just to be 100% sure we also paid a local pro luthier to go over it with a fine tooth-comb to check everything as well. We will happily sell this bass which has wear marks on it now but we will also explain exactly what those marks are and how we understand they got there.

We've actually sold one of Jimmy's ex-show basses in the past and explained the history behind it. Price was significantly reduced from a new one and the owner was happy about this. N.B. At a later date this bass re-surfaced at another retailer but no mention was made of the cosmetic flaws.

If we took a flawed bass in from Jimmy, or anyone else, we'd expect to know about every single flaw in advance and would aim to calculate a price reduction based on this. If the instrument turned up in a much worse state we'd either ask for an additional discount or send it back (or sometime we might try to make good using our local luthier who's an absolute wizard!).

We'd then list it for sale and detail every flaw and give an opinion on each of these. Any potential customer would then know in advance the exact state of the instrument. Ideally we'd ask them to come in and physically see it because people's views of 'flaws' differ tremendously. E.G. One person's 'damaged' finish is another's 'mojo' or someone's 'unplayably heavy' is someone else's 'good solid' weight etc.

Of course this isn't always possible - hence the detailed description on a show or ex-demo and with backup pictures supplied.

I can't genuinely say whether we'd have tried to sell the bass in question or not without knowing all the background. If we'd been told the condition and it arrived exactly like that and was still a solid playable instrument then I think we would have offered it for sale with a clear explanation. If it was unplayable and really nasty then we wouldn't (or we'd have tried to make it better if that was an option).

the main thing we wouldn't have done would have been to hide any flaws that we could have found.

In all of my direct experience with Jimmy he's been incredibly honest and open about cosmetic flaws and has offered to immediately repair, or take back, anything that may have been faulty. In fact he did take back something with a truss rod issue without a question and offered a brand new instrument in exchange. He also offered to replace some things for free on one bass that had been modified by a second owner and that were not remotely covered by any sort of manufacturer's warranty.

I guess it's this usual 'can do' attitude of his that makes me want to 'defend' him a little when people (on TalkBass) call him a cheat and a liar etc. This is simply not the guy I've dealt with on many occasions. Something obviously went badly wrong on all fronts in this particular set of circumstances and it seems to be a real one-off situation. Of course a lot of people find that very hard to accept and I can totally understand where they're coming from.

PS - The bass in question has not been offered up for sale to the dealer network as far as I know. It's certainly not been on offer to the few European dealers. Two instruments were recently offered to European dealers and both sold in minutes but they weren't anything like this one.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1376646407' post='2177204']
Yep I'd go with that too, you can see from lots of peoples gear lists here that they have chosen not to buy an expensive bass but rather a few or more at lower prices but you do get a wiff of snobbery with these so called high end basses. I had around 7 grands worth of rays not that long ago, I just like them! I have played almost every brand going other than dingwall and Ritter so far, none were any better built than my classic5.
[/quote]

That Classic 5 is nice. If I was in the market for a new bass, it would be a contender... Mind you, I've just found myself looking at Pavel instruments...

[ezbass]

It has been said that we all have 'off days' which is true, but it takes more than one, or even two, days to build a bass (either that or we have been lied to by luthiers/builders) so again, how did that bass ever leave the workshop?

I have been on the side of the punter in this thread (as you can tell) but i have had dealings with custom luthiers myself in the past which have not gone well. Long story short I came up with a design for a PRS/MM/Strat hybrid guitar, sounds complicated, but the body and neck shaping were all done as hoped for. So what went wrong? The glue in neck was made to the scale length I wanted, but the body/bridge was different. 9 months to get to that point! I demanded my money back and despite "I'll build you another one as a rush job." offers, I got my cash back. In fairness to the luthier he did put his hands up to the fault, but not immediately; I'd already played it and he had said it merely needed setting up correctly to overcome the intonation issue I'd noticed. A friend of mine had a 5 string bass built by a well known and loved UK luthier which also took forever and was lied to over certain build issues (they also used his custom build at a show before delivery, when it was supposed to be unfinished and without his permission). This all points to a worrying trend with 'boutique' gear when you add on the current AC debacle, people's experience with Ken Smith and others mentioned in this thread. Factory instruments also obviously have faults, but they seem to remedied much quicker and without too much fuss.

I've owned a good number of US MM 'Rays and like StingrayPete they have been built with massive attention to detail, the same goes for Lakland (both US and Skyline) which is my current squeeze.

Phew I've gone on a bit there! Not sure I've actually said anything really (certainly not anything that will change this debate, which has been circling for some time [I know I'm not helping BTW]) but I'm not deleting after all this typing

[molan]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1376646407' post='2177204']
Yep I'd go with that too, you can see from lots of peoples gear lists here that they have chosen not to buy an expensive bass but rather a few or more at lower prices but you do get a wiff of snobbery with these so called high end basses. I had around 7 grands worth of rays not that long ago, I just like them! I have played almost every brand going other than dingwall and Ritter so far, none were any better built than my classic5.
[/quote]

I find there's lots of snobbery both ways here on BC. You get it from high end owners who wouldn't touch a 'cheap' bass and then the reverse from people who would never pay over xxxx for a bass and think the people who buy the expensive ones are mad.

Both camps like to take a pop at each other now and then and both get equally defensive. Not sure it's particularly 'positive' but it's pretty basic human nature to have some sort of attachment to things and a set of beliefs you want to defend.

Working, albeit only a day or so a week, in a bass shop means I've seen a lot of instruments come through in all sorts of states of repair. There are some that are almost totally faultless and others that are often a bit wonky.

Musicman is definitely somewhere in the middle. I've seen some real beauts but also some complete dogs. Two of the worst paint finishes I've ever seen have been on Rays and another had a neck like a banana and was near unplayable (truss rod was still working too!). A couple of Classics have been in recently and both were really nice and very well finished

Edited August 16, 2013 by molan

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='EBS_freak' timestamp='1376647988' post='2177243']


That Classic 5 is nice. If I was in the market for a new bass, it would be a contender... Mind you, I've just found myself looking at Pavel instruments...
[/quote]
Even if you ignore the style and setup of the bass I haven't seen anything better finished out of all the basses the geek meets have thrown up, that said obviously it takes more time and skill to put something with fancy laminations etc, often these really expensive basses are no more than a boring old burst like my classic though cnc and a bolt on neck not exactly pushing the boundaries is it?

[chris_b]

[quote name='ezbass' timestamp='1376649231' post='2177271']
....so again, how did that bass ever leave the workshop?....
[/quote]

I'm sure all new AC basses would be great but the facts are that this wasn't a new bass. It was played and was being sold as such.

The problem was that the amount of specified "player wear" turned out to be full on "damage" and JC refused to deal with the situation.

JC got a kicking, the buyer (supposedly) got his money back and hopefully a lesson was learned by everyone.

[wateroftyne]

FWIW, when I started this thread the discussion was intended to be the way this specific complaint was handled. Nothing else.

I have no opinion on AC otherwise. Never played one, couldn't afford one. :-)