Even the best luthiers have their off-days...

[Toasted]

The really criminal pictures are the ones of the belly cut and the horn. That's not damage, it's just plain bad woodwork.

[Dingus]

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1376403252' post='2173409']
'If' that is the case then in my book that makes him despicable as opposed to someone making a single poor judgement call. I realise that it is your take on the situation and may well not be JC's reasoning for what happened but taking advantage of someone or a situation (i.e. someone desperate to get a particular instrument; lefties being particularly difficult to come by) as you describe, is beyond the pale.
[/quote]

Why so ? One interpretation of events could be that all Jimmy was doing was fascilitating someone getting their dream bass . [u]If [/u]the buyer had had his eyes open about the real state of the bass and still proceeded , that is . Jimmy says the buyer did know what condition the bass was in , the buyer says he didn't . The truth probably lies somewhere between those two points of view .

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1376403661' post='2173423']
Why so ? One interpretation of events could be that all Jimmy was doing was fascilitating someone getting their dream bass . [u]If [/u]the buyer had had his eyes open about the real state of the bass and still proceeded , that is . Jimmy says the buyer did know what condition the bass was in , the buyer says he didn't . The truth probably lies somewhere between those two points of view .
[/quote]

There is one factor here that should remove any element of doubt about the quality of the finished goods:

$5000.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1376403661' post='2173423']
Why so ? One interpretation of events could be that all Jimmy was doing was fascilitating someone getting their dream bass . [u]If [/u]the buyer had had his eyes open about the real state of the bass and still proceeded , that is . Jimmy says the buyer did know what condition the bass was in , the buyer says he didn't . The truth probably lies somewhere between those two points of view .
[/quote]

Again, pure conjecture but had JC disclosed the condition (and I refer back to my earlier point of who the hell considers that a suitable level of fit and finish to sell off 'as new') to the buyer when he was buying it, then I would have assumed that JC's response on TB would have reflected that; something along the lines of 'I told you what the condition of the bass was!'. However, he hasn't defended himself in that manner, rather he has attacked the buyer and insinuated that he (the buyer) has either tampered with the bass or deliberately photoshopped the images to make it appear worse than it is.

Aside from the motivations and truths (hidden or otherwise) in this situation, I personally think that JC should seriously up his QC at the various points of build.

[Dingus]

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1376404570' post='2173445']
Again, pure conjecture but had JC disclosed the condition (and I refer back to my earlier point of who the hell considers that a suitable level of fit and finish to sell off 'as new') to the buyer when he was buying it, then I would have assumed that JC's response on TB would have reflected that; something along the lines of 'I told you what the condition of the bass was!'. However, he hasn't defended himself in that manner, rather he has attacked the buyer and insinuated that he (the buyer) has either tampered with the bass or deliberately photoshopped the images to make it appear worse than it is.

Aside from the motivations and truths (hidden or otherwise) in this situation, I personally think that JC should seriously up his QC at the various points of build.
[/quote]

Well , if he wanted me to buy a bass from him , I would expect a cetain level of fit and finish , so I am right there with you on that . However , what underlies this whole debate and the indignation of the people who comment on JC's level of workmanship is that buying high end basses is a lottery . It ought not to be , but it is . I have bought more expensive high - end basses than I care to mention , including man/ most of the big names that most players aspire to own as " ultimate " fantasy instruments . Nearly all of them were a dissappointment in one way or another . Nowadays, I don't expect that much in return when I part with my money . I am half expecting problems with the bass before I even pay for it , to be honest . The naked fact is that building boutique basses is not an occupation that attracts the most dilligent of individuals , regardless of the hype they try and create around themselves and their " fanatical committment to quality " .In reality , most of them are enthusiastic amateurs learning on the job as they go . In most cases , it's a cottage industry , and the final products are often on the cusp between handmade and homemade . There are a few notable exceptions where you are much more likely to get a decent quality final product , but for the most part I would warn any discerning customer not to be surprised if their custom order bass turns up with at least one or two rudimentary flaws in the construction . A big part of the problem is that building high -end basses is such a low-paid job that they are inevitably overworked , under-resourced and hopelessly behind schedule , more often than not .

Edited August 13, 2013 by Dingus

[Dingus]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1376404390' post='2173442']
There is one factor here that should remove any element of doubt about the quality of the finished goods:

$5000.
[/quote]

Is $5000 really [i]that[/i] much money nowadays ? I don't think so . The commercial value of the goods is , as in all such transactions , governed by the law of Supply and Demand . The goods are in limited supply (i.e a one off ,) and the customer has let known his demand for the product , placing the seller in a powerful and advatageous position . [i]That[/i] is why he feels justified in asking a high price for the bass , rather than because of an unerring belief in the quality of his product . I see vintage guitars and basses that are in far worse states than this bass selling for way in excess of $5000 , but they are "worth it " because they are in short supply and there is a persistant demand for them . Do you see what I mean ? Things are worth what you can get for them .

[Musicman20]

Would it not be a little fairer on the chaps who are dealing with AC on new and used basses to leave the situation as it is?

Not only are we affecting AC's potential orders and future customer base, but we are also affecting the stores who deal with AC.

The OP is getting his refund, which he is entitled to. Something is clearly not 'right' with the bass, and he paid a lot of money for it, but we are all seeing one side of the story.

I am not defending either party, but a resolution is on its way.

After the various threads creating problems and issues with other manufacturers, (not just basses) and the points that were raised previously, I suggest we act as we stated we should previously.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Musicman20

[risingson]

[quote name='Toasted' timestamp='1376403630' post='2173422']
The really criminal pictures are the ones of the belly cut and the horn. That's not damage, it's just plain bad woodwork.
[/quote]

Having read JC's reply to the thread I started to try and figure out how photography might have been used to convey the instrument in the 'worst possible light' (literally). I almost convinced myself it was possible but then I remembered how badly the horn was cut. Yikes.

His reply was terribly thought out, absolutely should have been a case of contacting the buyer and dealing with it on a personal level. Then again TB'ers can be rabid. I'm sure he was probably equally pissed off at the level of animosity levelled at him by the keyboard warriors from the forum. Still, not professional at all.

[Dingus]

If I fancied an AC bass , this saga wouldn't deter me from ordering one in the slightest .

[Musicman20]

[quote name='risingson' timestamp='1376407370' post='2173508']
Then again TB'ers can be rabid. I'm sure he was probably equally pissed off at the level of animosity levelled at him by the keyboard warriors from the forum. Still, not professional at all.
[/quote]

I agree. All forums contain these types of people who push and push, and I've experienced it myself. If I were an angrier and less patient person, I would have acted differently, but we all have different personalities.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1376407059' post='2173500']
Would it not be a little fairer on the chaps who are dealing with AC on new and used basses to leave the situation as it is?

Not only are we affecting AC's potential orders and future customer base, but we are also affecting the stores who deal with AC.

The OP is getting his refund, which he is entitled to. Something is clearly not 'right' with the bass, and he paid a lot of money for it, but we are all seeing one side of the story.

I am not defending either party, but a resolution is on its way.

After the various threads creating problems and issues with other manufacturers, (not just basses) and the points that were raised previously, I suggest we act as we stated we should previously.
[/quote]

I disagree.

IMHO it is totally relevant and appropriate to discuss it. If there is the potential for poor workmanship (which I think few would argue with) and/or poor customer relations from a manufacturer then it should be openly discussed and aired. Yes JC is a small manufacturer producing a low turnover (in number) of instruments, that being the case then he needs to be getting it right and if he isn't then situations like this may well stop others from having similar issues/situations. In the long term I doubt this situation is likely to cripple his business, especially as there appear to be more than one or two folk on this thread alone who are prepared to pay (relatively) large sums of money to a guy in another country for a custom made bass that they won't 'likely' have the chance to try until it is delivered... good luck to him and to those that buy those instruments.

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1376407419' post='2173509']
If I fancied an AC bass , this saga wouldn't deter me from ordering one in the slightest .
[/quote]

To be honest, me neither, I'd just be VERY specific, which you would for $5,000.

I'd be very careful, which you would for $5,000.

I've seen some awful examples of high end basses (all different manufacturers), but I've seen some very good examples as well.

[thodrik]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1376407419' post='2173509']
If I fancied an AC bass , this saga wouldn't deter me from ordering one in the slightest .
[/quote]

It would deter me. There are plenty of other boutique Fender bass makers. None of them are particularly unique in terms of design, so if I am going to spend loads of money on an instrument that I haven't seen or played, then brilliant customer service and the option of returning the bass if it was a dud would be pretty significant factors in determining my choice. Having to resort to an ugly public forum mudslinging match in order to reach a resolution to any problem hardly inspires much confidence, no matter how brilliant the majority of the basses are.

[Dingus]

[quote name='thodrik' timestamp='1376408635' post='2173528']
It would deter me. There are plenty of other boutique Fender bass makers. None of them are particularly unique in terms of design, so if I am going to spend loads of money on an instrument that I haven't seen or played, then brilliant customer service and the option of returning the bass if it was a dud would be pretty significant factors in determining my choice. Having to resort to an ugly public forum mudslinging match in order to reach a resolution to any problem hardly inspires much confidence, no matter how brilliant the majority of the basses are.
[/quote]

Well , as the saying goes , you pay your money and you takes your choice . If it had been me who had bought the bass , I wouldn't have taken to a public forum to air my grievances , so I'm not so sure the buyer "had " to do any such thing . He did , he got what he wanted , and JC got a good kicking in the process that may damage his livelihood in the long -term , but I'm not sure that justice has really been served , and that is what I find distasteful .

Edited August 13, 2013 by Dingus

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1376408925' post='2173533']
Well , as the saying goes , you pay your money and you takes your choice . If it had been me who had bought the bass , I wouldn't have taken to a public forum to air my grievances , so I'm not so sure the buyer "had " to do any such thing . He did , he got what he wanted , and JC got a good kicking in the process that may damage his livelihood in the long -term , but I'm not sure that justice has really been served , and that is what I find distasteful .
[/quote]

I think if you read the OP on TalkBass you'll find that buyer very much felt that he had exhausted all the non-public means of getting a resolution to the issues with the bass.

[Dingus]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1376407630' post='2173516']
To be honest, me neither, I'd just be VERY specific, which you would for $5,000.

I'd be very careful, which you would for $5,000.

I've seen some awful examples of high end basses (all different manufacturers), but I've seen some very good examples as well.
[/quote]

The thing is , a lot of these guys have the best of intentions , but in reality you are dealing with a middle -aged bloke with antiquated machinery , long hair and rent to pay . It's not Audi or Mercedes , and clinical manufacturing tolerances are extremely unlikely in most such circumstances .

[Dingus]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1376409274' post='2173537']
I think if you read the OP on TalkBass you'll find that buyer very much felt that he had exhausted all the non-public means of getting a resolution to the issues with the bass.
[/quote]

Yes , but as I keep saying , that is only the buyers version of events . He would say that , wouldn't he ? That is not proper redress that is objectively fair to both parties .

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1376409386' post='2173540']


Yes , but as I keep saying , that is only the buyers version of events . He would say that , wouldn't he ?
[/quote]

Backed up by photos and a timescale that suggests he'd hit a brick wall.

When you get to that point, what else can you do?

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1376409386' post='2173540']
Yes , but as I keep saying , that is only the buyers version of events . He would say that , wouldn't he ? That is not proper redress that is objectively fair to both parties .
[/quote]

And judging from the overall tone of Jimmy Coppolo's reply I'd be more inclined to believe the buyer.

[thodrik]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1376408925' post='2173533']
Well , as the saying goes , you pay your money and you takes your choice . If it had been me who had bought the bass , I wouldn't have taken to a public forum to air my grievances , so I'm not so sure the buyer "had " to do any such thing . He did , he got what he wanted , and JC got a good kicking , but I'm not sure that justice has really been served , and that is what I find distasteful .
[/quote]

I understand your point to a certain extent. Some people are happy to business under those conditions. I certainly wouldn't.

However the buyer had apparently attempted to contact JC to get a resolution to the issue but to no avail. Only then did he post anything on a public forum, which he did without making any scandalous accusations towards AC or JC personally. What other recourse did he reasonably have, other than contact him again and again?

Although some Talkbass posters went way too far in their criticisms, JC still had an opportunity to resolve the situation. Instead he delivered a poorly worded, accusatory response. Any 'kicking' that JC then received was pretty much of his own doing.

[Truckstop]

Yeah I would definitely buy an AC if I could. They look and sound incredible (I played Happy Jacks AC Jazz once). If I had £3k to spend on an instrument thats what if get.

I think people place too much stock in customer service these days anyway. The dude's not a waiter or something and as such he's not there to cater to anyones needs. He's there to build and sell basses that he thinks are better than anyone else's and that's it.

Truckstop

[Dingus]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1376409517' post='2173547']
Backed up by photos and a timescale that suggests he'd hit a brick wall.

When you get to that point, what else can you do?
[/quote]

Trust me , in America there is plenty you can do in that situation . It's the most consumer -orientated and litigious society in the World .

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1376410106' post='2173561']


Trust me , in America there is plenty you can do in that situation . It's the most consumer -orientated and litigious society in the World .
[/quote]

Alternatively, you can post your experience on Talkbass and have it resolved in about 24 hours for free.

[Dingus]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1376409624' post='2173552']
And judging from the overall tone of Jimmy Coppolo's reply I'd be more inclined to believe the buyer.
[/quote]

I can genuinely see how you come to that conclusion - it might be my gut instinct too - but that is not justice . Jimmy Coppollo is supposed to be good at building basses , not neccesarilly at representing himself against slander on the internet . He is possibly not the most articulate of men , or the most adept at public relations , but neither of those things would neccesarilly mean that he was guilty of these accusations or that he is fundamentally deceitful or dishonest . That is for a disinterested third party to decide .

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1376410558' post='2173568']
Jimmy Coppollo is [u]supposed[/u] to be good at building basses...
[/quote]

...nail/head/struck!