Even the best luthiers have their off-days...

[Conan]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1376420538' post='2173770']The threads never got like this, and owners are very defensive of BF.
[/quote]

I disagree with your first point- some of the BF threads get very nasty. And yes, owners do tend to get defensive - as we are seeing from the AC owners on here too.

[Conan]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1376420429' post='2173762']
Not required Conan. Not at all. See my previous post re: previous threads of this nature.
[/quote]

Aaw come on... it was just a bit of humour - I thought the thread needed it. No offence intended

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1376420692' post='2173776']
The response was nothing like this, and I think various OPs were 'told off' for raising the issue by those who might then do exactly the same.

Hence I think it should cool off because none of us ultimately know the facts and/or are involved.
[/quote]

The difference in the current instance is that photographs have been produced to back up claims. Also, the 'accused' is a forum member so a public right to reply was always in the offing.

Previous instances I can think of have consisted of vague and occasionally wild accusations away from the gaze of the 'accused', with very little clear information produced to back up those claims.

And that shall be my last comment on this particular tangent.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1376420692' post='2173776']
Hence I think it should cool off because none of us ultimately know the facts and/or are involved.
[/quote]

...but this is t'interweb, you're supposed to shout at your screen and lambast folks you know nowt about!

[Musicman20]

[quote name='Conan' timestamp='1376420872' post='2173781']


Aaw come on... it was just a bit of humour - I thought the thread needed it. No offence intended
[/quote]

No worries!!

[Conan]

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1376421080' post='2173792']
...but this is t'interweb, you're supposed to shout at your screen and lambast folks you know nowt about!
[/quote]

Really? I thought that was just me!

[Musicman20]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1376421058' post='2173791']
Previous instances I can think of have consisted of vague and occasionally wild accusations away from the gaze of the 'accused', with very little clear information produced to back up those claims.
[/quote]

This has happened in numerous threads over the years, and stating anyone would effectively start to 'stretch the truth' or make 'wild accusations' when the actual circumstances are only known by the two parties (and this is exactly what we have here) should just be kept out of it.

If AC decided he wanted to take action against the forums for the threads, I'm just glad I wasn't part of it.

Main thing is the OP is sorted and maybe AC will pull something out the bag to sort it out.

None of us are affected so let's be thankful for that.

Edited August 13, 2013 by Musicman20

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1376421643' post='2173807']
This has happened in numerous threads over the years, and stating anyone would effectively start to 'stretch the truth' or make 'wild accusations' when the actual circumstances are only known by the two parties (and this is exactly what we have here) should just be kept out of it.
[/quote]

So you are saying that if a person (a member of an internet forum) finds themselves in dispute with person/business and they are getting nowhere, then they shouldn't air their grievance on an internet forum? Surely the circumstances of ANY dispute are known only to the parties involved... in that case nobody should have the right to chip in. Yes/No?

[Musicman20]

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1376422166' post='2173820']
So you are saying that if a person (a member of an internet forum) finds themselves in dispute with person/business and they are getting nowhere, then they shouldn't air their grievance on an internet forum? Surely the circumstances of ANY dispute are known only to the parties involved... in that case nobody should have the right to chip in. Yes/No?
[/quote]

What I've said there is basically IF you aren't involved with the argument, but you want to put your opinion in, you opinion is quite strong and could affect someones credibility, and its not necessarily the place to do so because you are for example:

A - No involved
B - Associated with the manufacturer etc and therefore slightly biased

....then you shouldn't add anything to the thread without serious consideration.

IF the OP has a serious griple, and the manufacturer comes along and they both just rant at each other, let them go ahead...its their business. Not ours to create more gossip.

[Dingus]

Overall , I get the impression that JC was so enamoured of his own work and reputation that he thought that the buyer would be content to own the bass in its' current state . With hindsight , that was an error of judgement and he has offered a refund , so all has ended well , thankfully . Jimmy's faith in his own work and belief in his product is admirable in many ways , but maybe this time he slightly overestimated the kudos of the AC brand and this is the resultant fallout from that . In situations like this I always reflect on the fact that anyone can make an honest mistake or an error of judgement - I know I have done myself , more than once - and I wouldn't be so quick to condemn someone or besmirch their character because of that because of that .

Edited August 13, 2013 by Dingus

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1376422620' post='2173833']
What I've said there is basically IF you aren't involved with the argument, but you want to put your opinion in, you opinion is quite strong and could affect someones credibility, and its not necessarily the place to do so because you are for example:

A - No involved
B - Associated with the manufacturer etc and therefore slightly biased

....then you shouldn't add anything to the thread without serious consideration.

IF the OP has a serious griple, and the manufacturer comes along and they both just rant at each other, let them go ahead...its their business. Not ours to create more gossip.
[/quote]

Surely the point of airing your dirty laundry by posting on a public forum is an open invitation for others to comment/contribute/apply pressure and in some way anyone posting about issues that they have, would be soliciting support from others!

[Musicman20]

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1376423263' post='2173849']
Surely the point of airing your dirty laundry by posting on a public forum is an open invitation for others to comment/contribute/apply pressure and in some way anyone posting about issues that they have, would be soliciting support from others!
[/quote]

More than likely this is so in most instances.

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Musicman20' timestamp='1376423522' post='2173852']
More than likely this is so in most instances.
[/quote]

Sad indeed!

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1376422849' post='2173837']
Overall , I get the impression that JC was so enamoured of his own work and reputation that he thought that the buyer would be content to own the bass in its' current state . With hindsight , that was an error of judgement and he has offered a refund , so all has ended well , thankfully . Jimmy's faith in his own work and belief in his product is admirable in many ways , but maybe this time he slightly overestimated the kudos of the AC brand and this is the resultant fallout from that . In situations like this I always reflect on the fact that anyone can make an honest mistake or an error of judgement - I know I have done myself , more than once - and I wouldn't be so quick to condemn someone or besmirch their character because of that because of that .
[/quote]

You would [i]really[/i] have to be enamoured with your own work to think that a body that looks like it was contoured by a drunk with a Dremel is of craftsman quality. And your ego would have to be of cosmic proportions to believe that your work couldn't possibly be that bad and that somehow a camera flash must have made the bass look like ****, or to suggest that the buyer had doctored the photos rather than admit you've produced a really poor quality instrument.

If he'd come back and said "OK I've seen the photos and I agree that bass isn't up to my quality standards and I'm going to put it all right.", then his reputation would have been saved. Unfortunately he said "Give me the bass back and I'll give you your money back because you're clearly not the right type of person to own a bass as amazing as this.".

I think he's crazy. Neither the buyer nor the forum are not to blame for his current predicament. It's entirely his fault.

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='warwickhunt' timestamp='1376421080' post='2173792']
...but this is t'interweb, you're supposed to shout at your screen and lambast folks you know nowt about!
[/quote] I do that.
Then remember you sold me a nice bass warwick once and are a decent chap so I feel guilty about all my lambasting.

[Gust0o]

Some really good lessons, here, in how to manage your brand in the age of social media.

[steve-soar]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1376423879' post='2173869']


You would [i]really[/i] have to be enamoured with your own work to think that a body that looks like it was contoured by a drunk with a Dremel is of craftsman quality. And your ego would have to be of cosmic proportions to believe that your work couldn't possibly be that bad and that somehow a camera flash must have made the bass look like ****, or to suggest that the buyer had doctored the photos rather than admit you've produced a really poor quality instrument.

If he'd come back and said "OK I've seen the photos and I agree that bass isn't up to my quality standards and I'm going to put it all right.", then his reputation would have been saved. Unfortunately he said "Give me the bass back and I'll give you your money back because you're clearly not the right type of person to own a bass as amazing as this.".

I think he's crazy. Neither the buyer nor the forum are not to blame for his current predicament. It's entirely his fault.
[/quote]Spot on. He portrayed himself as a very strange kind of business man. The very fact he called the bass's owners honesty into question, speaks volumes about his persona. And saying that Doug P, played the bass "like a man", well. All in all, a very sorry tale.

[Dingus]

[quote name='steve-soar' timestamp='1376425928' post='2173914']
Spot on. He portrayed himself as a very strange kind of business man. The very fact he called the bass's owners honesty into question, speaks volumes about his persona. And saying that Doug P, played the bass "like a man", well. All in all, a very sorry tale.
[/quote]

I think he is referring to the fact that Doug Pinnick played the bass quite hard with a pick , which would have been likely to have accentuated any fret buzz problem .

And Jimmy Coppollo is probably quite a poor business man . Like I said earlier , it's a business full of rank amateurs . We are ,after all , talking about people who want to build electric guitars for a living . It's hardly a profession which attracts hard-headed business men with slick P.R skills . Jimmy is only human and is responding in a defensive way to the deluge of criticism and abuse he has had over this bass and the nature of the agreement he had with the buyer . As I also alluded to earlier , I have no interest in defending Jimmy Coppollo, but at the same time I can see why he has reacted in the way he has . He has been tried and found guilty by a jury of idiots on Talkbass and now it has passed into legend that he is a conman who produces shoddy work and then abuses his disgruntled customers . I expect that is actually some way from the truth of what actually happened here . .

Edited August 13, 2013 by Dingus

[Dingus]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1376423879' post='2173869']
You would [i]really[/i] have to be enamoured with your own work to think that a body that looks like it was contoured by a drunk with a Dremel is of craftsman quality. And your ego would have to be of cosmic proportions to believe that your work couldn't possibly be that bad and that somehow a camera flash must have made the bass look like ****, or to suggest that the buyer had doctored the photos rather than admit you've produced a really poor quality instrument.

If he'd come back and said "OK I've seen the photos and I agree that bass isn't up to my quality standards and I'm going to put it all right.", then his reputation would have been saved. Unfortunately he said "Give me the bass back and I'll give you your money back because you're clearly not the right type of person to own a bass as amazing as this.".

I think he's crazy. Neither the buyer nor the forum are not to blame for his current predicament. It's entirely his fault.
[/quote]

With the benefit of hindsight , he should have managed the situation in exactly the manner you suggest . But that doesn't make him dishonest in his earlier representations to the customer . He may or not be crazy , but whether he is or not , it doesn't mean he cheated the customer out of his money .

[warwickhunt]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1376427908' post='2173962']
With the benefit of hindsight , he should have managed the situation in exactly the manner you suggest . But that doesn't make him dishonest in his earlier representations to the customer . He may or not be crazy , but whether he is or not , it doesn't mean he cheated the customer out of his money.
[/quote]

'Cheated' is a strong word but might he have kept the customers money after a legitimate complaint... we will never know!

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1376427908' post='2173962']With the benefit of hindsight , he should have managed the situation in exactly the manner you suggest . But that doesn't make him dishonest in his earlier representations to the customer . He may or not be crazy , but whether he is or not , it doesn't mean he cheated the customer out of his money .[/quote]

I think Jimmy was dishonest throughout. I'm surprised the customer parted with $5000 for a bass he hadn't seen, but with AC's reputation you'd think he could reasonably assume he would be receiving a bass that was brilliant but had some signs of playing wear. That's what Jimmy told him was the reason for the discounted price - some wear and tear due to the bass having been played, but this clearly wasn't true.

Even disregarding the silly glue/oil/camera flash nonsense and the finish problems on the body (which could indeed have been worn while it was being played), there's the rubbish finish job on the face of the headstock, the strange problems on the rear edge of the headstock and the edge of the neck in the first position, the chips on the edge of the fingerboard (that's not 'playing wear' unless someone's been fretting notes with a chisel) and the terrible contouring on the body. Jimmy told the buyer that these imperfections were due to regular wear from the bass being played a lot, and he must have known this was not true. Anybody who has seen the photos knows it's not true.

I think if you knowingly misrepresent a product, you are cheating the customer. And to then compound the mistake by suggesting that the whole thing is the customer's fault, and to effectively call the customer a liar, that's unforgivable. And unfortunately for Jimmy Coppolo you can't do that on the internet without everybody knowing about it.

This mess is entirely of his own making.

[Muzz]

I work with customers on a daily basis, and if I even considered accusing them of misrepresenting the facts or fabricating evidence before I'd addressed a problem properly, no matter how 'defensive' I might be feeling, I'd be invited to consider my position, and rightly so.

I've learnt from the maker's response that I wouldn't trust him to provide correct customer service should there be any issues with one of his products if I bought it from him. I was genuinely hoping he'd say 'I've spoken to the OP and will be resolving the issue' and then further hope to see a resolution post from the OP in due course, but no.

All largely academic in this particular instance, as I don't like Jazz clones, no matter how boutique, but the principle remains.

[Dad3353]

All academic now, but here's the bass, and the purchaser, before the blow-up, with the photos that sold it...

[url="http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f8/club-alleva-coppolo-part-20-a-928105/index50.html"]http://www.talkbass....05/index50.html[/url]

...the buyer even uses his graphic skills to simulate different pick-guard options. An interesting read.
The honeymoon was short, it seems...

Edited August 13, 2013 by Dad3353

[Cairobill]

Reading this sorry tale, it strikes me that with the massive turn over and correspondingly large depreciation in high end basses amongst collectors who barely play their top dollar basses, he could have bought a near mint bass through another talkbass member for a fraction of the price.

[steve-soar]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1376427620' post='2173956']


I think he is referring to the fact that Doug Pinnick played the bass quite hard with a pick , which would have been likely to have accentuated any fret buzz problem .

And Jimmy Coppollo is probably quite a poor business man . Like I said earlier , it's a business full of rank amateurs . We are ,after all , talking about people who want to build electric guitars for a living . It's hardly a profession which attracts hard-headed business men with slick P.R skills . Jimmy is only human and is responding in a defensive way to the deluge of criticism and abuse he has had over this bass and the nature of the agreement he had with the buyer . As I also alluded to earlier , I have no interest in defending Jimmy Coppollo, but at the same time I can see why he has reacted in the way he has . He has been tried and found guilty by a jury of idiots on Talkbass and now it has passed into legend that he is a conman who produces shoddy work and then abuses his disgruntled customers . I expect that is actually some way from the truth of what actually happened here . .
[/quote]I have never played a JC bass and would have found the opportunity of playing this lefty as a coup, as I'm a lefty and have been disappointed by custom builds in the past. I think the photos show serious finishing issues, both in woodworking and lacquer. I worked for a luthier for 4 years and I can say that no instrument ever left the shop in such an appalling condition as was shown in these picks. Finish sinking does happen, but that fingerboard was a total abortion. What really is of interest, is that the post on Talkbass from JC, implied that the owner may have photoshopped the pictures.

Also, how does playing with a pick cause fret buzz?