hamfist Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Just for something to do, I tried out a new passive bass I have just bought with a really short instrument cable (about 2 feet). And then compared it to my normal 5m one. I was expecting a tiny bit of high frequency roll-off. What I got was a night and day difference ! It went from being a good bass to an amazing sounding bass. Getting me one of those redeemer circuit thingys. I want that tone all the time ! If you're bored at any point, give the long/short cable check a go on your favourite passive bass. You might be surprised. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Were both your leads exactly the same type of cable and the jack plugs the same make - and something decent like Van Damme cable and Neutrik jacks? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamfist Posted August 22, 2013 Author Share Posted August 22, 2013 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1377181535' post='2184434'] Were both your leads exactly the same type of cable and the jack plugs the same make - and something decent like Van Damme cable and Neutrik jacks? [/quote] Similar. If anything the longer cable was the higher quality one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zenitram Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 And just to be clear, it sounded better with the short cable, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigRedX Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 Just tried it with 1m and 5m OBBM leads. Zero perceptible difference in signal quality. I would suggest that there's something wrong with the less good sounding lead that you have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamfist Posted August 22, 2013 Author Share Posted August 22, 2013 [quote name='Zenitram' timestamp='1377183793' post='2184481'] And just to be clear, it sounded better with the short cable, right? [/quote] yes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iceonaboy Posted August 22, 2013 Share Posted August 22, 2013 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1377186989' post='2184543'] Just tried it with 1m and 5m OBBM leads. Zero perceptible difference in signal quality. I would suggest that there's something wrong with the less good sounding lead that you have. [/quote] I would tend to agree with this as I have never found any difference in lead length. Lead quality makes a big difference right enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamfist Posted August 22, 2013 Author Share Posted August 22, 2013 [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1377186989' post='2184543'] Just tried it with 1m and 5m OBBM leads. Zero perceptible difference in signal quality. I would suggest that there's something wrong with the less good sounding lead that you have. [/quote] OK, that is certainly possible. Although I also tried a decent quality 3m cable during the test, and the short cable still made the bass sound waaaaay better. COuld still be two faulty cables I guess. I shall try to reproduce it with other cables. Although I'll have to use a different bass (which isn't the best comparison test) as I've just dismantled and prepared the one I used previously in readiness for spraying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamfist Posted August 22, 2013 Author Share Posted August 22, 2013 Right, I've just done the same test with a load of cables, using a passive Yamaha PJ this time. Results ........ negligible difference between any of them, including the other 3m and 5m cables I used in the earlier test. I know what I heard previously though, with the other bass, which for the record is an 80's Westone Spectrum, which has the Matsumoku MBIII pickup in. COuld be something to do with the impedence of the MBIII pickup, I honestly don't know. But I can tell you I will repeat the test again once the bass is back together again. Puzzling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lfalex v1.1 Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 (edited) Working from the reasonable assumption that no cable is perfect, and that all cables, therefore, have a negative impact (albeit small) on perceived sound quality, it seems likely that a cable half as long has less of a negative impact. I tried it with some good quality stereo interconnect cables that were too long. I cut the to ⅓ their original length. Yes, there was a tangible improvement. The benefits are greater with "signal" cables than speaker cables in every application- be it "HiFi" (whatever that is), PA, studio or in a bass rig. Edited for- output impedance makes a difference. I have an active Vigier which has an unbalanced low impedance output (600ohm). It makes very little difference which lead I use, or how long it is. It also send to make the signal less affected by effects. Weird. Edited August 23, 2013 by Lfalex v1.1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamfist Posted August 23, 2013 Author Share Posted August 23, 2013 OK, impedance output. Interesting .... gets me thinking. The westone bass I did the initial test on has a particularly high output pickup, so therefore high impedance, I guess. Maybe, for passive basses, the higher the impedance output of the pickup, the more they lose signal, and tone, with longer cables ? It's a theory anyway . Anyone with decent electricals knowledge like to comment on that ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Jack Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 You've got it all wrong guys, what matters is straight cables vs curly cables ... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BILL POSTERS Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 (edited) [quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1377186989' post='2184543'] Just tried it with 1m and 5m OBBM leads. Zero perceptible difference in signal quality. I would suggest that there's something wrong with the less good sounding lead that you have. [/quote] This... Tried it with several identical new ones of different lengths up to 10m, sounds the same. Not recently, but I have also looked the the signal with a scope in the past, couldnt really see a difference, although I could only look at one at a time, so it doesnt mean much tbh. Edited August 23, 2013 by BILL POSTERS Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BanditSid Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 (edited) [quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1377252793' post='2185276'] OK, impedance output. Interesting .... gets me thinking. The westone bass I did the initial test on has a particularly high output pickup, so therefore high impedance, I guess. Maybe, for passive basses, the higher the impedance output of the pickup, the more they lose signal, and tone, with longer cables ? It's a theory anyway . Anyone with decent electricals knowledge like to comment on that ? [/quote] The problem with passive basses and long cables isn't losing signal due to resistance of the cable but the loss of high frequency signals due to the cable capacitance. The guitar output impedance (typically 250 k) means that when the cable capacitance gets near to 1nF (typical of a lot of 5 metre cables) the RC combination forms a low pass filter with the 3dB roll off at 630 Hz - this is the main cause of the audible difference in sound quality.....in extreme cases the tone control on say a Fender Jazz bass will seem to have no effect. OBBM use Klotz AC110 cable with a capacitance of less than 75pF per metre, this is about as good as I have seen and would mean that a 5 metre cable is still useable on a passive bass. The alternative is to go for an active bass with a low output impedance, but the preamp does add a bit to the sound. Edited August 23, 2013 by BanditSid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hamfist Posted August 23, 2013 Author Share Posted August 23, 2013 (edited) [quote name='BanditSid' timestamp='1377265681' post='2185567'] The problem with passive basses and long cables isn't losing signal due to resistance of the cable but the loss of high frequency signals due to the cable capacitance. The guitar output impedance (typically 250 k) means that when the cable capacitance gets near to 1nF (typical of a lot of 5 metre cables) the RC combination forms a low pass filter with the 3dB roll off at 630 Hz - this is the main cause of the audible difference in sound quality.....in extreme cases the tone control on say a Fender Jazz bass will seem to have no effect. OBBM use Klotz AC110 cable with a capacitance of less than 75pF per metre, this is about as good as I have seen and would mean that a 5 metre cable is still useable on a passive bass. The alternative is to go for an active bass with a low output impedance, but the preamp does add a bit to the sound. [/quote] OK, thanks for that Sid. Thanks I understand most of that. Still leaves me puzzled as to why I have one passive bass that seems to be really sensitive to tone loss with longer cables and one passive bass that doesn't. And this is comparing with exactly the same cables. Edited August 23, 2013 by hamfist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gjones Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 I bought a retro looking Fender lead a couple of years ago. The first one didn't work. The replacement worked but gave me the muddiest, woolly sound I've ever heard. I chucked it away it was so bad. Is this an issue with curly leads or just, badly manufactured, fender, curly leads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted August 23, 2013 Share Posted August 23, 2013 (edited) [quote name='hamfist' timestamp='1377252793' post='2185276'] Maybe, for passive basses, the higher the impedance output of the pickup, the more they lose signal, and tone, with longer cables? It's a theory anyway . [/quote]It's a fact. When the impedance of any source is particularly high it makes the capacitance of the cable a major factor in high frequency losses and noise pickup. The higher the impedance the worse it is. The cures are lower source impedance and/or lower capacitance cables. Since capacitance is proportional to cable length that also enters the equation. Capacitance and cable length tend to be non-issues with line level/buffered sources, such as those in actives, where the source impedance tends to be less than 1kOhm, as opposed to 10kOhm and higher with passives. [quote]I chucked it away it was so bad. Is this an issue with curly leads [/quote]Coiled cords have the worst capacitance imaginable, and also high inductance, which makes them doubly bad. Edited August 23, 2013 by Bill Fitzmaurice Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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