New Light weight Vs Heavy Cabs

[PauBass]

Not sure the post title is right but I didn't know what to call it

Anyway, I might be changing my rig soon and I wanted to ask about the new lightweight cabs that have now become so popular. I'm not referring to any particular brand, I just want some info/feedback to make sure I'm making and inform and right decision.

I have read how powerful and how good sounding some of these cabs are but, as I have no previous experience with any of these new lighweight cabs I rather ask before pulling the trigger.

I'm used to big powerful cabs, Bergantino NV610 and NV412 that give plenty of volume and an amazing tone.
Can these new cabs, usually 2x12 and 2x15, really compete in volume with the likes of the mentioned Bergantinos?

I hope I'm not opening a can of worms here, it is not my intention, I'm just after some advice, these cabs cost a lot of money.

[MacDaddy]

come to a bass bash and try out as many cabs as possible, and see for yourself

[PauBass]

[quote name='MacDaddy' timestamp='1377183469' post='2184478']
come to a bass bash and try out as many cabs as possible, and see for yourself
[/quote]

If I could I would but, unfortunately I work a lot of weekends and since I have been on Basschat I haven't been able to attend any of them

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='PauBass' timestamp='1377183565' post='2184479']
If I could I would but, unfortunately I work a lot of weekends and since I have been on Basschat I haven't been able to attend any of them
[/quote]

Bu99er.

Well my experience is yes. I've had all kinds of heavy and currently have a Tech Soundsystems 2x12 which is an easy one hand lift. It can cope with ridiculous levels of volume and sounds good to me. I favour a bass sound that has plenty of bottom end without sounding muffled with boosted low mids to cut through.

I gig with Happy Jack who has various Barefaced cabs, he never has lack of volume trouble, and quite often sounds rather nice despite his preference for flats

[barkin]

Drop an email to Barefaced - see if you can pop along the coast to Brighton and try some of theirs?

[Paul S]

I was always really happy with my old large Trace Elliot rig - loved it, in fact. I used to mix and match various cabs - 1x18, 1x15, 2x10 with two different heads. But a lower back problem forced me to change to lightweight gear. The 18" cab was nearly 50kg!

I thought it would be a compromise borne of necessity but, in reality, nothing could be further from the truth. After trying a lot of different makes and set-ups I opted for a TC Electronic Classic 450 into Barefaced Compact + Midget. Awesome. Much greater clarity, much more definition of the sound than I used to get out the Trace Elliot. And the whole rig weighs as much as one of the TE heads! For rehearsals with a loud drummer in a classic heavy rock covers band I used to use just the Midget - largely out of convenience but it is absolutely fine. Lack of power has never been an issue. For gigs I use both cabs for the broader tone but either are great and loud enough on their own.

[Happy Jack]

Despite me being a known Barefaced fan, I have to point out that the OP was definitely after a wider answer and it's quite right that he should want one.

As MacDaddy says, I have (and have had) a number of Barefaced cabs, and I've run various heads through them with various bands. I also try to see other Basschatters' bands when possible, so I've heard a fair number of light-weight cabs in use.

I've ended up having to make a distinction - probably incorrect, but it works for me - between [i][b]volume [/b][/i]and (for want of a better word) [i][b]presence[/b][/i].

Sonic karma for a 70s-type pop/rock fan like me is a big all-valve head through a ridiculously heavy cabinet.

If I plug an Orange OTB500 or a Gallion-Kreuger MB500 into any Barefaced rig I can get all the [i][b]volume [/b][/i]I'll ever need, as can (say) LowEndBee with his TC rig in The Jetsonics and many others I've heard.

And it sounds great. Until I unplug the OTB500 and plug in a Matamp GT120.

I can then play at exactly the same [i][b]volume [/b][/i]but with greatly-enhanced [i][b]presence[/b][/i]. Every note wraps itself around me on stage, and fills every corner of the room I'm playing to. Lovely.

In the same way, if I plugged that Matamp not into a Barefaced but into my old Eden rig (2 x D210 XLT's) I'd expect another similar step up in [i][b]presence[/b][/i].

So why not do that?

Because the difference in tone - to MY ears anyway - between the Eden rig and the Barefaced cab simply doesn't justify moving around 136lbs. Yes, you did read that right. [size=5][b]136lbs[/b][/size].

That's over three times as much as the Super12 I've been using, and nearly three times as much as the replacement for the Super12 that I'm waiting for, the 69er.

In short, I don't think the current breed of light-weight cabs can ever sound quite as good as the huge units they are replacing, but (i) I don't think they actually need to, (ii) the greater weight of old-school cabs absolutely dwarves the improved tone, and (iii) the light-weight cabs sound pretty damned good in their own right.

[Mr. Foxen]

You can achieve the distortion of old cabs via other means than underpowered drivers though. You need to work with the cab you have to get best tone, not set the tone for one cab, then swap in another and declare it not as good.

[alexclaber]

I completely disagree with Jack, despite him being our most frequent customer.

The so-called 'presence' of the heavy rigs is simply extra distortion (even if you don't hear it as such). The reason our neo cabs don't sound like those heavy cabs is because they use much better speakers with much lower distortion. If I want distortion I want it on my own terms, I don't want it to happen all the time nor to increase significantly before I play as loud as I need to. For the tone I want (most of the time) I don't want that distortion.

When I do want that distortion (growl/bite/edge etc) then I have a '69er which uses speakers like those in those heavy cabs but in a radically lighter enclosure (which costs far more to make than a simple thick-walled unbraced box but consequently is easily as stiff and far less heavy).

So what one bassist may consider 'presence' another bassist may considering an irritating lack of thump, bottom, punch, clarity, etc etc etc. Weight has nothing to do with it. That doesn't mean that all lightweight cabs perform well - a cheap way of making a cab light is simply to use thin ply, put in minimal or no bracing and use cheap stamped frame ferrite speakers with undersized magnets. Or a halfway house is to go neo and use a braced enclosure but go for a lower-end neo driver and not as much bracing as ideal.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1377189009' post='2184589']
I completely disagree with Jack, despite him being our most frequent customer.

[/quote]

Oi! You! Get back to work on my 69er!

[Lozz196]

For me it depends on the size of the gigs. I always used to use either a heavy 412 or a heavy 410 & 210. Massive depth of sound. But my back got to the point where I had to be sensible. I now use a lightweight 112 combo with 112 ext cab. I expected to compromise re sound, but for the gigs I do, in the venues I play, I`ve not noticed any real difference. I`m sure if I needed to really push the volume at that point I would, but at this point I`d be playing very big stages and have monitoring anyway.

[JTUK]

I agree there is volume and volume.

I haven't found any NEO's that work ... but that is not to say I don't gig a NEO rig and it is more than half decent
but its appeal is the weight and footprint. It will do most gigs that I do and only struggle on a few, but when you introduce a rig
that is the FULL beans, then you know the difference.

When I settled on my light NEO rig, I knew it was almost there... but also that there was spmething not quite ..erm...!!.
My choice or decision was was it something I could or would comprormsie on?
For a lot of gigs, I do exactly that, but for the most discerning gigs..from my POV, there is no real choice and out come rig NO 1.
And it is quite a way in front... IMO.

[borisbrain]

There are some impressive lightweight 1x12 and 2x12s making their way to the market lately. Hartke do a mighty impressive 1x12, while GK, Tecamp and TC do some fine 2x12s...

BB

[wateroftyne]

I also think there's 'volume' and 'volume'.

In my experience so far, there's a characteristic of Neos that I don't quite gel with. It could well be that they're more accurate and efficient than ceramic drivers, which I imagine to some (most?) people would be a huge benefit.

I'm using a couple of (extremely) lightweight 12s now, with ceramic drivers, and they give me the sound I've been looking for whilst saving my back from any more grief. It's a nice halfway house, I think.

[stingrayPete1977]

I have said this before but I will say it again, the problem we have at the moment is that all boffins want to build the best cab they can using all the facts and figures possible, what most players want is their normal sound with all it's faults (as boffins see them) but in a light weight package, as soon as the boffins iron out the faults with a 4x10 folks here don't like it!

The first manufacturer that builds an 8x10 with all it's faults regarding the cab tuning but half the weight they will be millionaires!

[Salt on your Bass?]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1377254288' post='2185306']
The first manufacturer that builds an 8x10 with all it's faults regarding the cab tuning but half the weight they will be millionaires!
[/quote]

I think that was the objective with the '69er. I don't really have a lot of experience with premium big cabs - I'm running a 410 presently and compared to some of the light weight options I've used in the last 2 years, the light weight out performed my current cab. All the 810s I've ever come across live and rehearsal rooms have always been pony in my view, but they were all pretty beaten up and not bergs etc.

I guess the only way to find out if it works for you is to try and compare, but obviously difficult when lead times and a lot of cash is involved.

Edited August 23, 2013 by Salt on your Bass?

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Salt on your Bass?' timestamp='1377255597' post='2185333']
I think that was the objective with the '69er.
[/quote]

I bloody hope so ... that's why I'm waiting for one right now!

[stingrayPete1977]

The only thing to remember though is that all the experts want to improve it's tone, take out the mid bump etc blah blah, with an open mind that's progress and might be a good thing, the guy who was happy before other than the weight now wants his mid bump back or the 'fixed' dispersion as it was for the last 30 years.

[PauBass]

Thank you all for your comments!

I know these new cabs are very efficient and loud but, can a 2x15 or 2x12 match a good 412 in power/volume/presence?
This is my main concern, I don't want to spend big money and then fin d out they can't.

[Happy Jack]

When/where is your next gig? (The link to Killing Vegas is dead, BTW.)

[PauBass]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1377263808' post='2185536']
When/where is your next gig? (The link to Killing Vegas is dead, BTW.)
[/quote]

We played last week in Horsham and won't be gigging for now, holidays and then we'll concentrate in song writing for our next studio release.

Thanks for the heads up on the Killing Vegas link, we'll get that sorted.

Edited August 23, 2013 by PauBass

[stevie]

There are two ways that the manufacturers of these lightweight cabs make them lighter. The first is by using drivers with neodymium magnets. These are equivalent in every way to the more familiar, heavier drivers and the weight saving is made possible because of a technological advance. Neo drivers are roughly half the weight of their ceramic equivalents. They are also twice the price.

The second way of reducing overall weight is by reducing the weight of the cabinet. Because there is no technological advance involved here (such as carbon fibre panels, for example), manufacturers make the cabinet walls out of thinner or less dense materials to get the weight savings. It's fairly obvious that this is not ideal, because the cabinet is going to 'talk' when pounded with bass frequencies, but many people are prepared to accept the compromise to get the light weight. I may be wrong, but I have the distinct impression that most of the people buying these have bad backs.

The PA industry went throught a similar kind of thing several decades ago when the plastic PA cab was introduced. Most of them make the singer sound like he is singing in a bucket, but they remain popular - especially with female vocalists. It interesting to note, however, that PA bass bins are almost without exception made from 3/4" stock because that is what has proven over many years to be optimum.

A good, modern conventional cab will always outperform a modern 'lightweight' cab of equivalent price - especially at volume.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1377265336' post='2185562']The second way of reducing overall weight is by reducing the weight of the cabinet. Because there is no technological advance involved here (such as carbon fibre panels, for example), manufacturers make the cabinet walls out of thinner or less dense materials to get the weight savings. It's fairly obvious that this is not ideal, because the cabinet is going to 'talk' when pounded with bass frequencies, but many people are prepared to accept the compromise to get the light weight.[b] I may be wrong...[/b][/quote]

Yes you are!

[Raggy]

[quote name='PauBass' timestamp='1377263376' post='2185522']
I know these new cabs are very efficient and loud but, can a 2x15 or 2x12 match a good 412 in power/volume/presence?
This is my main concern, I don't want to spend big money and then fin d out they can't.
[/quote]

Having owned a both a Berg 610 and 412, my lightweight 2x15 outperforms them easy in every way, thats to my ears and needs though.

Now the Bergs are sealed and my 2x15 is ported, It could mean that sealed cabs are just not my bag.

It's tricky but it's something you will not know until you try one out, and it needs to be at war volume.

[stevie]

[quote name='alexclaber' timestamp='1377267953' post='2185624']
Yes you are!
[/quote]
Well I was only guessing but you certainly appear to have a lot of customers with bad backs.