New Light weight Vs Heavy Cabs

[MacDaddy]

[quote name='Raggy' timestamp='1377268113' post='2185631']
thats to my ears and needs though.


[/quote]

and this is the only thing that matters.

[VTypeV4]

I've tried a MarkBass rig with the twin channel 550w(?) head and two of the 4x6" + HF and it was very good. The guy who's it is is also very pleased with it after 4 years service.

The speakers are capable being both loud and low and work very well but those little rigs are just not quite for me. Another friend runs two twelve inch 'Berg cabs but when I tried it, I felt something was missing. I like the characteristics of the ceramic mag TF Celestions in my Ashton 4x10, 1x15 and K15 in the Twinvalve combo.

Maybe its limitations of the speakers (power compression etc) that I like in my bass guitar sound? JBL quote figures for power compression and distortion etc but not many others seem to have such an in depth spec. I couldn't say what these figures contribute to a bass guitar sound but like many others on here, I know what I like to hear. Probably same as the reasons some of us love valve amplifiers?

Personally i'll stick with my big and heavy rigs for as long as I can carry 'em!

[WinterMute]

I used to use an Ampeg 8x10 fridge, a TE 4x10 and a GK 800RB, bi-amped, sounded lovely, weighed slightly less than a small planet and needed the services of several beefy gentlemen to get it into the car or van...

I now use a BF Big Twin, which, despite being the biggest of the BF cabs, is still a 1 hand lift into the back of the car.

It's louder than the old rig, has much better dispersion, and is capable of producing a much wider range of tones.

I'd say that lightweight cabs are absolutely as good, and for my application, better than older designs.

[JTUK]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1377265336' post='2185562']
................
The PA industry went throught a similar kind of thing several decades ago when the plastic PA cab was introduced. Most of them make the singer sound like he is singing in a bucket, but they remain popular - especially with female vocalists. It interesting to note, however, that PA bass bins are almost without exception made from 3/4" stock because that is what has proven over many years to be optimum.

A good, modern conventional cab will always outperform a modern 'lightweight' cab of equivalent price - especially at volume.
[/quote]

Indeed, I have found this to be true.

The wooden cabs fetch a premium and side by side, you can hear the difference....which is why we use wooden cabs for P.A....even the tops.

Edited August 24, 2013 by JTUK

[RandomBass]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1377268776' post='2185642']
Well I was only guessing but you certainly appear to have a lot of customers with bad backs.
[/quote]

I wonder if BF are available on the NHS?

[JapanAxe]

My BF Compact sounded different from my Ashdown 1x15. I decided I preferred the BF, YMMV. Ok mods you can lock this thread now

[stevie]

You can buy an Ashdown 1 x 15 for about £150 on here. Even brand new they're ony £350. What's a Compact - £700?

[stevie]

[quote name='RandomBass' timestamp='1377344307' post='2186485']
I wonder if BF are available on the NHS?
[/quote]

We should all lobby our MPs!

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1377346609' post='2186513']
You can buy an Ashdown 1 x 15 for about £150 on here. Even brand new they're ony £350. What's a Compact - £700?
[/quote]
True but part of the allure of GAS is spending loadsa money and convincing yourself it was worth it for the incremental improvement!

Edited August 24, 2013 by JapanAxe

[discreet]

[quote name='JapanAxe' timestamp='1377346948' post='2186521']
True but part of the allure of GAS is spending loadsa money and convincing yourself it was worth it for the incremental improvement!
[/quote]

I don't think the difference between an Ashdown 1X15 and a Compact is in any sense incremental!

[RandomBass]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1377346651' post='2186514']
We should all lobby our MPs!
[/quote]
Ironically, I may well be doing a one-off gig with my local MP! He's released an album recently, using our regular drummer. Apparently they are doing some corporate gig and their usual bass player can't make it.

I will try and mention this BF/NHS plan to him

[JapanAxe]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1377347299' post='2186534']
I don't think the difference between an Ashdown 1X15 and a Compact is in any sense incremental!
[/quote]
It is - it's just a very large increment

[Mr. Foxen]

I stuck a 3015 in an Ashdown MAG15 and lined it with knobbly foam, sounded good, but the ports are too small and it compresses before the driver is getting to its limit. So if you spend about £250 on top of the cost of the Ashdown cab, you get a sort of heavier, less loud Compact.

Edit: typo

Edited August 24, 2013 by Mr. Foxen

[Musicman20]

Light, punchy

http://www.dv247.com/guitars/gallien-krueger-gk115-neo-bass-speaker-cab--96167

[discreet]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1377265336' post='2185562']
A good, modern conventional cab will always outperform a modern 'lightweight' cab of equivalent price - especially at volume.
[/quote]

I can't agree. Yes, lightweight cabs may use thinner materials but this is offset by properly thought-out bracing.
BF cabs are braced until next Tuesday, so they're rock-solid. But still very light.

[Mr. Foxen]

Also, a good modern conventional cab will be lightweight. Being heavy is something tech has moved on from.

[Phil Starr]

[quote name='PauBass' timestamp='1377263376' post='2185522']
Thank you all for your comments!

I know these new cabs are very efficient and loud but, can a 2x15 or 2x12 match a good 412 in power/volume/presence?
This is my main concern, I don't want to spend big money and then fin d out they can't.
[/quote]

You've stumbled into a question with a moderately complex answer.

Firstly let's deal with the whole concept of 'presence', 'distortion' and 'sound'. Different speakers sound different, that's as true of speakers today as it was in the 1070's and is as true of lightweights and neodymium as it is of heavyweights. You can probably get the sound you want out of a lightweight or a heavy old school speaker but without psychic powers I can't judge what you are looking for. Even a word like distortion has many meanings, for an engineer is is anything that deviates from the original signal, for a guitarist the warmth, punch, presence or whatever might be very welcome parts of the sound they want to achieve. If you are choosing a new speaker then you have to try it out and love the sound it makes first of all. If you can get that from a light speaker and it fits your budget then you might be prepared to pay the premium.

Like Stevie says there are two ways to save weight. Mass is one of the things that affects panel resonances, stiffness another and there are more, there is nothing new in making thinner speaker panels and bracing and damping them or even looking at alternate materials with different mass/flexibility/internal damping. Bracing any panel will reduce it's resonance and shift the frequencies involved. The lightweight cabs may use 12mm panels rather than 18mm saving 1/3 of the mass. Then use some of this saving to create the bracing, they may even then be more rigid and less resonant than a conventional cab.

The next thing is to look at lighter magnets using neodymium. There isn't a neo sound. Neo speakers all sound as different from each other as conventional speakers except that neo is expensive so is only used in better speakers. One of the advantages of using neo is that you can make a more powerful magnet though. This extra power can be used in two ways, to increase the loudness/efficiency of the speaker or to increase the coil length at the same efficiency (or a bit of both). If you increase the coil length you can get more bass out of the speaker, double the length and you'll get the same bass you get out of two similar sized conventional speakers. A really good 12" speaker can sound as loud as a conventional 2x12. It has nothing to do with presence, it can be measured and calculated. The rarely mentioned downside however is that in practice you can't go on doubling magnet powers for a number of reasons so long throw drivers often need bigger amps to get the best out of them. This makes good sense to do as amplifier watts are relatively cheap.


So to answer your question it is true you can buy a lightweight which will match a heavyweight and will make your trousers flap and cause hearing loss with its presence, but you pay for the extra design/material/build costs which is fair enough.

The only way to see if you like the sound is to try them, just as it is with old school cabs.

[Lozz196]

[quote name='discreet' timestamp='1377386870' post='2187067']
I can't agree. Yes, lightweight cabs may use thinner materials but this is offset by properly thought-out bracing.
BF cabs are braced until next Tuesday, so they're rock-solid. But still very light.
[/quote]

Agree Mark. I knocked my Compact over once and, by the looks, thought it would fall apart. Not even a scratch - they are much tougher than they look.

[sk8]

I used a hiwatt 200 and berg NV412 exclusively for gigging and now use a Purple Chili Hybrid head and two Purple Chili PCB112 cabs with no tweeters. I thought I would miss the sealed vibe as the. PCB's are ported but after A/Bing them the sound was so close as Marengo difference especially as the Chili rig weighs less than 30kg in total. I don't regret going lightweight one bit.

[mikhay77]

I always used to play through the heavy weight cabs,mostly Trace 4x10s,hartke's,marshalls,hiwatts,ampegs etc.All sound great,strong build etc but heavier than Jupiter! So tried a few lightweights and have a pair of Markbass 4x10's. The sound quality is there,actually better,more punchy,tight and great lows,the size,lol is there and I gotta have bass near my lugholes! As for build? Well,talking only about MB cabs,bobbling carpet covering like candy floss and those pathetic plastic corner protectors that just break as soon as they rub against,well anything.Cabinets are strong and braced superb,its just the little bits that p*** me off. Would probably still take shelter in a Trace 8x10 if a Nuclear strike was imminent!

[JTUK]

Its a common theme here...so ..you pay a good price, why these silly annoying things that ruin it.

Cheap and cheap is one thing... but cheap and expensive..???

[Kevin Dean]

Firstly I would always get the best you can afford , you will save money in the long run . Ive had most makes of cab & at the moment I have a BF super twelve T. My friends & I have compared our rigs that cosist of a Marshall 2x12 , MB 4x10, MB 2x 4x6, TC 2x 4x10 . My cab was powered by a MB little Rocker & with a Zoom MS60B was able to cloan all of these cabs even the heafty Marshall . As I value my back I thought it would be a compromise for me ,but I was proved wrong .

[stevie]

[quote name='Phil Starr' timestamp='1377403675' post='2187129']Like Stevie says there are two ways to save weight. Mass is one of the things that affects panel resonances, stiffness another and there are more, there is nothing new in making thinner speaker panels and bracing and damping them or even looking at alternate materials with different mass/flexibility/internal damping. Bracing any panel will reduce it's resonance and shift the frequencies involved. The lightweight cabs may use 12mm panels rather than 18mm saving 1/3 of the mass. Then use some of this saving to create the bracing, they may even then be more rigid and less resonant than a conventional cab.[/quote]

Whilst theoretically possible in an ideal world, getting a 12mm panel as stiff as an 18mm panel requires some serious bracing – enough to make the box nearly as heavy as making it out of 18mm in the first place. The way I remember it, if you reduce the thickness of plywood by 3mm you reduce its stiffness by 50%. So a 15mm panel is half as stiff as an 18mm panel and a 12mm panel is half as stiff again. An 18mm panel is actually 8 times as stiff as a 9mm panel – and it's a lot worse if you're also using lighter materials like softwood ply.

I don't think any of the companies making lightweight bass cabs are using a really sophisticated bracing system like the B&W Matrix because that would add too much weight. These companies are building lightweight cabs – so they use as much or as little bracing as they need to get the job done. The only company that provides any information on their cabinet bracing is Trace Elliot and they seem to be using a single circular brace. Good, but not belt and braces, although to be fair they don't make any special claims for their poplar ply cabinet anyway – except that it's light.

Although in theory you can brace the bejaysus out of a thin panel to make it stiff, what you can't do is compensate for the reduced self-damping of thinner materials. Damping is what stops a material from ringing - and ringing is what makes cabinets sound bad. There's also the problem that the thinner material is less acoustically transparent and will allow sound to escape through the cabinet more easily at certain frequencies.

So while I'm all in favour of neo drivers, I am not a fan of thinwall cabinets for bass.

You can easily check the inertness of your cabinet (and thus how much spurious noise it is producing) by playing a low E on your bass whilst placing your (other) hand against the back panel.

Edited August 28, 2013 by stevie

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='stevie' timestamp='1377715518' post='2190826']
Whilst theoretically possible in an ideal world, getting a 12mm panel as stiff as an 18mm panel requires some serious bracing – enough to make the box nearly as heavy as making it out of 18mm in the first place. The way I remember it, if you reduce the thickness of plywood by 3mm you reduce its stiffness by 50%. So a 15mm panel is half as stiff as an 18mm panel and a 12mm panel is half as stiff again. An 18mm panel is actually 8 times as stiff as a 9mm panel – and it's a lot worse if you're also using lighter materials like softwood ply.

I don't think any of the companies making lightweight bass cabs are using a really sophisticated bracing system like the B&W Matrix because that would add too much weight. These companies are building lightweight cabs – so they use as much or as little bracing as they need to get the job done. The only company that provides any information on their cabinet bracing is Trace Elliot and they seem to be using a single circular brace. Good, but not belt and braces, although to be fair they don't make any special claims for their poplar ply cabinet anyway – except that it's light.

Although in theory you can brace the bejaysus out of a thin panel to make it stiff, what you can't do is compensate for the reduced self-damping of thinner materials. Damping is what stops a material from ringing - and ringing is what makes cabinets sound bad. There's also the problem that the thinner material is less acoustically transparent and will allow sound to escape through the cabinet more easily at certain frequencies.

So while I'm all in favour of neo drivers, I am not a fan of thinwall cabinets for bass.

You can easily check the inertness of your cabinet (and thus how much spurious noise it is producing) by playing a low E on your bass whilst placing your (other) hand against the back panel.
[/quote]

All of this doesn't ring true. You absolutely can compensate for the reduced self damping of thinner materials, changing the ply composition can do that. additionally all the stiffness stuff doesn't work, half the panel thickness and brace across two opposing panels will happily give most of the stiffness of an unbraced full thickness one, along with massively reduced resonance/raised resonant frequency. Observing any engineered structure shows specific reinforcement is employed over plain mass, any large concrete structure isn't just made of masses of concrete, it is made of reinforced concrete, with an interior framework giving strength with concrete over it. Bridges are not made of a solid mass, but a framework of supports.

[redstriper]

I use one or sometimes two 15" cabs made by Flite and loaded with Eminence neo kappalite drivers.
I think they are made from un-braced thin ply with a foam core originally developed for the aerospace industry, but I don't know the details.
They are incredibly lightweight, yet sturdy and they sound great to my ears compared to many other cabs I have owned and played through, including Ashdown, Bergantino, Trace, Ampeg, Aguilar, Acoustic, Epifani and others I can't remember.
I play reggae, so I like a very deep, clean tone and these cabs provide that whilst weighing less than a BF compact.
I have had mine a few years and I have played plenty of gigs in various locations and never noticed any ringing, buzzing, chuffing or distortion, despite the cabs being very small with a tiny port and a huge inset handle.
I'm sure they shouldn't sound so good on paper, but they work for me and all those who have used them - that's not to say they would suit everyone.