Mornats Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 Haha, I was in the shop with Pinball when the guy behind the counter was telling us this. Personally, I think the guy in the shop is full of sh*t 90% of the time. He was the same guy who told me that there are only around a dozen people in the world who truly know how to set up a guitar properly (him being one of them). He's a good laugh if you're bored. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 [quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1377439302' post='2187501'] Sounds like bollocks to me [/quote] [quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1377453314' post='2187730'] Haha, I was in the shop with Pinball when the guy behind the counter was telling us this. Personally, I think the guy in the shop is full of sh*t 90% of the time. He was the same guy who told me that there are only around a dozen people in the world who truly know how to set up a guitar properly (him being one of them). He's a good laugh if you're bored. [/quote] Looks like I was right in the first place then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visog Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 (edited) We're mixing 'hi-end' here... Gibson & Fender limited editions are investments... don't even look at them as guitars, just objects. Hi-end luthier basses are different and have different economics... Fashion dictates Fodera at the mo' but that wouldn't make it an investment as such. More, on the lines that you won't lose money... like Alembics. It could go another way depending on which way the latest players buy: Ken Smith, etc. My GB bought for playability and tone rather than rarity... So just make sure to be clear what you're buying an instrument for.... Edited August 25, 2013 by visog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 [quote name='visog' timestamp='1377454007' post='2187741'] So just make sure to be clear what you're buying an instrument for... [/quote] Quite. I only ever buy basses to make a racket with. It's a bonus if they look nice, but... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 (edited) New high end basses depreciate just as fast, if not faster, than many cheaper ones. There's no way anyone in their right mind would buy one as an investment. Buying vintage Fenders could definitely be a potential investment but it doesn't always pay off. I know someone who paid £8K for a lovely Vintage Jazz when the market hit an absolute peak, it's worth something like £5K now. It'll rise again but not for a good few years. I love the fact that whenever the topic of expensive instruments comes up there's always someone that says the buyers of these don't actually play them or ever take them out to gigs. It simply isn't true. Why would anyone buy a guitar if they didn't intend to play it? It's a big old lump of cash to 'invest, in a plank of wood and some metal if it's just going to sit in the corner of the room. Especially if it's a new one and will have lost 30% of its value with the first year or so. I've met pub gig players with stunning high end instruments, off the top of my head I've seen Fodera, Ritter, Alembic, Wood & Tronics, Sadowsky, F Bass, Brubaker, GB, pre CBS Fender, Spector, Wal etc all being played regularly by people - quite a few of these are regular contributors here on BC as well. Of course they are in the minority of the total number of bass players out there on the pub circuit but they are definitely playing them on a regular basis. In fact in the past week or so I've seen Wal, F Bass, Wood & Tronics, Ritter, Brubaker and a pair of Foderas (plus others) being bought by regular players. Ages ranged from 15-50 and they were from all sorts of backgrounds including everything from still being at school to full time pro musicians. Not a single one came the mythical middle class, more money than sense bracket. I only help out 1-2 days a week in a bass retailer but I never see these people that others seem to think are quietly mopping up the entire stock of high end basses in the country. We have had a whole one customer who owned a Porsche but he's worked his socks off his entire working life and is bloody good at what he does. I don't begrudge him his success in any way and don't understand the attitude we so often see in this country that belittles people who've been successful in their career. He also just happens to be in a regular gigging pub band and loves playing his, expensive, basses. He knows they all lose him money but he most certainly isn't buying them as an investment! Edited August 25, 2013 by molan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stingrayPete1977 Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 Good post molan , I agree. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pinball Posted August 25, 2013 Author Share Posted August 25, 2013 [quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1377453314' post='2187730'] Haha, I was in the shop with Pinball when the guy behind the counter was telling us this. Personally, I think the guy in the shop is full of sh*t 90% of the time. He was the same guy who told me that there are only around a dozen people in the world who truly know how to set up a guitar properly (him being one of them). He's a good laugh if you're bored. [/quote] Good talking point though I couldn't help but think there was some truth in there somewhere. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visog Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 [quote name='molan' timestamp='1377454984' post='2187755'] Why would anyone buy a guitar if they didn't intend to play it? [/quote] There's loads of Jimmy Page Gibsons in glass cases in corporate offices that will never get a single note played on them... Welcome to the world of investment. You can't play gold but it's the #1 commodity... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 [quote name='visog' timestamp='1377456423' post='2187779'] You can't play gold but it's the #1 commodity... [/quote] You can't eat it, either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 [quote name='visog' timestamp='1377456423' post='2187779'] There's loads of Jimmy Page Gibsons in glass cases in corporate offices that will never get a single note played on them... [/quote] Where - I managed to work for over 30 years at a large ad agency and had clients in big corporate offices all over the world. I've never seen a single guitar in any one of them. Maybe you've visited different types offices to me though. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krysh Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 a lot of them you will find in here: [url="http://www.zwick4u.com/"]http://www.zwick4u.com/[/url] all of the instruments are real. i. e. look at the 3 alembics above the bar in zwick st. pauli. the owner uli salm is probably the biggest bass collector in germany, and yes he still is gigging, but not the ones on the walls in his clubs.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 (edited) Shock horror, a Fodera actually being played, in public, in a cricket club bar! This is a Monarch Yin Yang Custom - price new £10,500, very rare, only 6 made a year by probably the highest end most desirable maker on the planet (certainly in terms of average unit price) sold used by previous owner after 12 months at £7,500 - loss 29% Even bigger shock - it's a one off Ritter Roya Custom 5 - and someone has the nerve to play it down the pub! : This one was bought new by the current owner so it's harder to value on the used market but he certainly didn't buy it as an investment - it's his regular gigging bass. . . Apologies for the pic qualities but they are good old 'band down the pub' snaps so not always the best quality Edited August 25, 2013 by molan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discreet Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 Wow. Did the other players in those bands have to upgrade their gear to keep up..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 [quote name='krysh' timestamp='1377457242' post='2187800'] a lot of them you will find in here: [url="http://www.zwick4u.com/"]http://www.zwick4u.com/[/url] all of the instruments are real. i. e. look at the 3 alembics above the bar in zwick st. pauli. the owner uli salm is probably the biggest bass collector in germany, and yes he still is gigging, but not the ones on the walls in his clubs.... [/quote] Buying instruments as decoration for a music club to make it look more 'impressive' is very different from what the OP was referring to. The Hard Rock chain has been doing this for years and, I believe, includes their value on balance sheets. However these are almost always used instruments and with artist connections. They aren't going to luthiers and commissioning new builds or buying up brand new high end guitars from retail shops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krysh Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 @ molan: you have your experiences and I have mine... if this is so important for you to show some middle aged amateur musos playing expensive instruments at pub gigs, I'm fine with it. they enjoy themselves and that is fine. I know that most professionals just can't afford them. so what. this is life... I'm only sad that so many good expensive instruments dont get treated like they should be., becaus it almost always is about the money... I 'm happy with what I have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 [quote name='krysh' timestamp='1377458682' post='2187826'] @ molan: you have your experiences and I have mine... if this is so important for you to show some middle aged amateur musos playing expensive instruments at pub gigs, I'm fine with it. they enjoy themselves and that is fine. I know that most professionals just can't afford them. so what. this is life... I'm only sad that so many good expensive instruments dont get treated like they should be., becaus it almost always is about the money... I 'm happy with what I have. [/quote] I really don't understand what you mean? Are you saying that, in your experience, you know for an absolute fact that high end instruments are being bought as investments by people? I know a 15 year old that plays a Fodera Yin Yang at his school. Not sure if I have any pictures but I'll have a look for you. In fact the most expensive bass I've ever sold (£9,000+) has been to a student who's worked his arse off doing evening jobs to afford it. He's doing a post grad in music theory and will undoubtedly become a pro player. I know lots of professionals that can afford expensive instruments. In fact the Yin Yang Custom pictured above is not owned by a professional player who teaches 54+ hours a day and gigs in the evening. I've yet to meet anyone who's bought an expensive bass that doesn't treat it well or gig with it. This has nothing to do with the fact that they might have more money than someone else. Not one of them has some sort of mythical inherited wealth. They all work for their money and decide to allocate a chunk of it on an expensive bass. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krysh Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 (edited) [quote name='molan' timestamp='1377460467' post='2187848'] ... Are you saying that, in your experience, you know for an absolute fact that high end instruments are being bought as investments by people?... [/quote] yes, this is what I tried to say before. [quote name='krysh' timestamp='1377440929' post='2187529'] I agree, too. but nevertheless there are people who buy these highend instruments as an investment. [/quote] Edited August 25, 2013 by krysh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 [quote name='krysh' timestamp='1377460829' post='2187859'] yes, this is what I tried to say before. [/quote] I have to say that I am genuinely amazed. I've worked off and on in a high end bass guitar retailer for close to 3 years and not a single customer has bought a new bass from us an investment. In fact one of the most common comments we get is that they know sir instruments will drop in value the moment they walk out the door. The investors must all be buying from The Gallery. . . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krysh Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 [quote name='molan' timestamp='1377462614' post='2187883'] I have to say that I am genuinely amazed. I've worked off and on in a high end bass guitar retailer for close to 3 years and not a single customer has bought a new bass from us an investment. In fact one of the most common comments we get is that they know sir instruments will drop in value the moment they walk out the door. The investors must all be buying from The Gallery. . . [/quote] ofcourse they don't walk into shops. they go to namm and musikmesse and deal directly with the manufacturer. it is an investment, what do you think??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 [quote name='krysh' timestamp='1377462853' post='2187888'] ofcourse they don't walk into shops. they go to namm and musikmesse and deal directly with the manufacturer. it is an investment, what do you think??? [/quote] Seriously, you genuinely think NAMM and MusikMesse are flooded with private individuals buying high end basses as an investment? NAMM is technically not even open to the public and, as far I know suppliers cannot take money at the event (although they could obviously agree a deal and take the money later). Most of our suppliers, who are amongst the highest end luthiers out there sell virtually nothing at either of these events. In fact some of them refuse point blank to deal with the public. I know this because private buyers regularly contact them direct and they simply refer them back to us. Our deals with them mean that buying through a retailer is the same price as if they buy direct. The makers are happy to do this precisely because they don't want to deal with private individuals. I'll have to ask them how many instruments they sell at these events. It'll be interesting to hear first hand what they say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
krysh Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 [quote name='molan' timestamp='1377463686' post='2187902'] Seriously, you genuinely think NAMM and MusikMesse are flooded with private individuals buying high end basses as an investment? NAMM is technically not even open to the public and, as far I know suppliers cannot take money at the event (although they could obviously agree a deal and take the money later). Most of our suppliers, who are amongst the highest end luthiers out there sell virtually nothing at either of these events. In fact some of them refuse point blank to deal with the public. I know this because private buyers regularly contact them direct and they simply refer them back to us. Our deals with them mean that buying through a retailer is the same price as if they buy direct. The makers are happy to do this precisely because they don't want to deal with private individuals. I'll have to ask them how many instruments they sell at these events. It'll be interesting to hear first hand what they say. [/quote] you really like to turn around my words, don't you? I don't give a sh*t what you believe, but I definatively know at least one collecter in person who is doing exactly this. eom. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leroydiamond Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 The investors I know of are working musicians. That's when the investment in a high end instrument are realised. I purchased a Sadowsky nyc in 2009, a superb bass, superb flamed top in excellent condition. It has more than paid its way and owes me nothing. It would be an easy sell, but not at more than I paid for it. However the money I have earned with it, together with the joy it offers due to its excellent build has made it an excellent investment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 [quote name='krysh' timestamp='1377464056' post='2187904'] you really like to turn around my words, don't you? I don't give a sh*t what you believe, but I definatively know at least one collecter in person who is doing exactly this. eom. [/quote] Maybe something is getting lost in translation here. All I'm saying is that you've met one person who buys brand new instruments purely as investments and that my experience working in an expensive instrument store and dealing with hundreds of buyers has demonstrated that not one single person has been buying as an investor. I'm not doubting that you know someone who's doing this. I'm merely responding to the OP thread that asked if this was a common thing. In my direct experience it clearly isn't, neither am I getting any feedback from any of my expensive bass building clients that suggests this is a common occurrence either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
molan Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 [quote name='leroydiamond' timestamp='1377464407' post='2187910'] The investors I know of are working musicians. That's when the investment in a high end instrument are realised. I purchased a Sadowsky nyc in 2009, a superb bass, superb flamed top in excellent condition. It has more than paid its way and owes me nothing. It would be an easy sell, but not at more than I paid for it. However the money I have earned with it, together with the joy it offers due to its excellent build has made it an excellent investment. [/quote] Now that makes complete sense to me That's exactly the kind of thing we hear from many pro buyers. Their instrument is an investment in their musical career. In fact the example I gave earlier of a Fender owner that paid £8k for something that's now worth £5k is a perfect example - he's earned some serious money from that bass and it's repaid itself many times over Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTUK Posted August 25, 2013 Share Posted August 25, 2013 I play both of mine ... I don't expect to loose any money on them...but then I don't expect to sell them any time soon, anyway so I don't really care Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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