Are high end basses for investors or musicians?

[Pete Academy]

I have a high-end bass. I bought it because I could afford it at the time. I never think of it as an investment. It plays and sounds like a dream. To me it's just a great working bass. If I could afford to buy a bass as some kind of investment, it would be a custom Ritter.

I had a 1983 Steinberger L2. I decided to sell it and thought it might have been worth a couple of grand. I ended up selling it for 1400. I paid 950 in 1983, which was a trade price. Not really a great investment.

[leroydiamond]

[quote name='JTUK' timestamp='1377466026' post='2187939']
I play both of mine ...
I don't expect to loose any money on them...but then I don't expect to sell them any time soon, anyway
so I don't really care
[/quote]
yea my sadowsky is a keeper.

[Lowender]

[quote name='deanovw' timestamp='1377443121' post='2187564']
People with lots of money tend to buy expensive instruments.

Not many musicians I know have lots of money. Maybe I am moving in the wrong circles.
[/quote]

true. But the irony is, custom built and boutique have an even lesser re-sale value because they specifications are specific for the original buyer. Though I did make a little profit when I sold my Fodera. Then again, I had it for many years. Never did pan out. I hope the new owner is enjoying it.

[Pinball]

[quote name='leroydiamond' timestamp='1377464407' post='2187910'] The investors I know of are working musicians. That's when the investment in a high end instrument are realised. I purchased a Sadowsky nyc in 2009, a superb bass, superb flamed top in excellent condition. It has more than paid its way and owes me nothing. It would be an easy sell, but not at more than I paid for it. However the money I have earned with it, together with the joy it offers due to its excellent build has made it an excellent investment. [/quote]

This makes perfect sense for successful working musicians as I would imagine that you can claim back money spent on guitars against tax and you also get the pleasure of playing it.

Edited August 26, 2013 by Pinball

[RandomBass]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1377439432' post='2187503']
I intend to purchase a Lakland 55-94 with a blue swimming pool finish, they play and sound very nice to me
[/quote]
I misread that and was going to reply with 'why do you want to play your new Lakland in a swimming pool?'
Must have been a great gig last night lol

[leroydiamond]

[quote name='deanovw' timestamp='1377443121' post='2187564']
People with lots of money tend to buy expensive instruments.

Not many musicians I know have lots of money. Maybe I am moving in the wrong circles.
[/quote]

True for me also, most of the musicians I know are not very well off. With the recession here there has been a serious drop off in work. However IME there are many players using high end instruments. There is very good value to be had in used gear right now ( a mate of mine recently picked up a US lakland in great shape for 1400 euro). So even for "weekend warriors" like myself, there are real possibilities of obtaining a high end bass.

[Pinball]

[quote name='leroydiamond' timestamp='1377506946' post='2188141']
True for me also, most of the musicians I know are not very well off. With the recession here there has been a serious drop off in work. However IME there are many players using high end instruments. There is very good value to be had in used gear right now ( a mate of mine recently picked up a US lakland in great shape for 1400 euro). So even for "weekend warriors" like myself, there are real possibilities of obtaining a high end bass.
[/quote]
I couldn't agree more, I have a lovely 2nd hand Sandburg that I managed to pick up very reasonably and love.
[i]Note: On a personal note If I had a new and very expensive bass I would be worried to gig it in case I damaged it, where-as an old battered high end bass is and I enjoy it far more. How sad am I?[/i]
The Guy who was making the points was talking about [u]new[/u] high end instruments and saying that the companies making them we're aiming them at the Investor market rather than the gigging musician.

[EBS_freak]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1377449808' post='2187673']
Buying anything new as an investment is probably a bad idea, then again I know a guy who paid £9k for a Jimmy Page les paul a while ago, Gibson reduced them to £7200 a few months after, then Led Zepplin reformed a few months later and he sold it for £12500 so what do I know?
[/quote]

Haha. Indeed. And this was the same guy that bought a John English Stealth and lost a load of money on it because he routed a humbucker into thd neck! Just shows he used that as a player rather than an investment!

[leroydiamond]

[quote name='Pinball' timestamp='1377507954' post='2188150']
I couldn't agree more, I have a lovely 2nd hand Sandburg that I managed to pick up very reasonably and love.
[i]Note: On a personal note If I had a new and very expensive bass I would be worried to gig it in case I damaged it, where-as an old battered high end bass is and I enjoy it far more. How sad am I?[/i]
The Guy who was making the points was talking about [u]new[/u] high end instruments and saying that the companies making them we're aiming them at the Investor market rather than the gigging musician.
[/quote]

I can relate to the concerns regarding the possibilities of damaging an expensive bass. But high end basses in the hands of musicians demand to be played as that's when you get a return on your investment. The joy of playing a top end bass together with what you earn from using it is the deal here. I have minimal wear on my basses as they are either in a case or in my hands, despite having been used at numerous gigs over the years. I always get positive comments on my tone (despite my limited ability to play the thing ) from other musicians. No doubt the quality of the tone has lead to repeated work so high end instruments being used, really do pay for themselves. A major recording bassist happened to be at a gig I was playing at the weekend and was amazed at the tone from 2 high end basses I used on the night (mind you he was well sloshed, so will remain nameless )

Personally I don't get this whole investor thing. Having kept an eye on prices over the years it just doesn't add up IMO. E.g. my Sadowsky is 4 years old and even if it was as new, it still comes in as second hand and would not give me the same return as its purchase price, despite the general consensus re. Sadowskys holding their value. However I don't care as it has, and continues to pay for itself in multiples, together with giving me great joy, because its being gigged rather than sitting in a glass case or whatever. A high end bass can only realise its true value, be it financial or otherwise when its been used IMO.

Edited August 26, 2013 by leroydiamond

[JTUK]

But basses are wood and bits so if I put a ding too many in one, I would go and get it repaired just like I would my car.
I don't see the point of basses sitting at home.,myself.

I've invested/brought them so they do a job for me..... and to that end I no longer hanker after fancy AAA tops,...altho I do have one
but it still goes to 95% of gigs.
I keep it because it is a nice giggings bass.

[molan]

So I've spoken to a pair of very high end manufacturers and asked them if they thought their new basses were ever bought as investments.

The answer was a unanimous negative. Neither of them thought their instruments would rise in value in any sort of short / medium term market as they immediately lose value as soon as they are sold. This was believed to be just as true of limited edition runs - the additional rarity of a limited run may increase desirability and help them to sell quicker but, in the main, they didn't think they'd go beyond the price when new.

Both said they realised that this may not be true over a longer period. EG If an instrument costs £1,000 now and the new price rises by £100 a year for ten years then it would be judged against a £2,000 value. Taking an average used value of 40% of the new price into account his could easily mean the £1,000 bass could be worth £1,200 = £200 profit.

However this would almost certainly necessitate new prices to rise ahead of inflation. If you were buying purely as an investment you'd need to look into cost of capital (as in what else could you have used that money for and how much would it have risen). On this basis a new guitar is rarely going to make any significant profit for a very long time.

Of course it's never as clear cut as that and most people aren't pure investors so they are getting some sort of personal gain simply from owning and playing and some will literally earn money from them as pro musicians.

The net view was that it would be fairly foolish to be buying new guitars purely as investments (because there are a lot of other ways to make money more efficiently) and neither of the builders were aware of anyone doing this at the moment.

They'd certainly never heard of a business corporation buying new instruments as investments, although one mentioned the effect that Hard Rock have had on 'artist owned' authenticated guitars.

N.B. They both said they hardly ever sell to members of the public at trade shows. Anything nice is either pre-sold (this is really common for both NAMM and MusikMesse) or snapped up by dealers before the public get a chance. Again, the few private buyers that go direct are very much keen players and not investors.

Of course two builders is a small sample but their views were more or less identical so hopefully reasonably representative.

[gjones]

If you want to know about buying guitars for investment look no further. Here is an article from the 'Wall Street Journal' quoting a world renowned, vintage guitar collector and expert.

[url="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324436104578579071945355516.html"]http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324436104578579071945355516.html[/url]

That same collector is the 'cat in the hat' in the following video. Just to show it's not just the stereotypical, 'rich plonkers who can hardly play', who buy guitars as an investment (although it took me until about half way through to figure out he was playing one of my favourite songs, 'Phonebooth', by Robert Cray).

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KV6wIu-nL24"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KV6wIu-nL24[/url]

Meow.......!

[pierreganseman]

Hi Molan, absolutely right ! I cannot think of any brand of high end instruments that are "investment". In fact only fender i think could be called an investment these days bass wise I think. Jazz basses.... not P basses....

I only play bass as a living, produce a bit, doing home recording, teaching. Go on tour... bla bla the usual anonymous sideman i guess...

I play nice basses wich cost me a LOT of restrictions, no holiday and / or a lot of teaching (if anyone's thinking I enjoy teaching Red hot chilli Peppers to a 15 year old kid who has a hard time playing 8th notes in time...well think again) or spending 6 month on a boat playing for drunk people. I don't think i could make more than 50 on any bass I have. And that's only if I can actually make something

Overwater is to be considered high end basses I think : my overwater jazz 5 has a list price of about £3000 , after artist discount about £2100... I would be lucky to get more than £1500 If I had to sell it. Still you can find UK overwater for around £1000. Or sometimes less (one on forum now for £750)

Mike lull P4 : bought for £1750 used , I could I think hope to get that back on a private deal. Not even close if sold through a shop cause of commission. List price of £3000 +... loss of £1250 for 1st owner.

MTD 535 : bought £2100 used ... maybe i could get that back. That bass would be £3800 new.. that's a £1700 loss for the 1st owner.

Two custom sei bass single cut : £3000 each (had a small artist discount from martin) ... I would be lucky to get £1800 each. More realistic price of around £1500 i think. That's a loss of £1500 on each.

The only thing i could possibly make some money on is my fretless stingray 1979, but ONLY overtime. Like 5+ years cause prices have been going up a bit.

In my books... that's nowhere close to being an investment.................

Edited August 26, 2013 by pierreganseman

[Kiwi]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1377449547' post='2187667'] I think anyone buying a high-end bass as an investment is a little bit daft. [/quote]

[quote name='Happy Jack' timestamp='1377449313' post='2187664']
I keep seeing these threads about "high-end" (i.e. expensive) basses, but I'm betting that well over half the people posting on these threads routinely spend WAY more on their bog-standard box-with-four-wheels than they'd ever dream of spending on a bass.

And the bass will routinely hold a fair bit of its value for a long time, if it's rare & vintage it may even appreciate. Not many cars do that.
[size=4][/quote][/size]
+1
[size=4]I could have bought a very nice car at one point around 2006 but I decided to buy basses instead mainly because I don't like losing value with depreciation.

Most of my basses have kept up with inflation and a few of them are collectable and will go up a little in value when I sell. On reflection though, the cars I thought about buying have become very desirable in the last 3 years also...so maybe there are some similarities when it comes to [b]classic[/b] examples of both cars and basses.[/size]

I think there is potential for a lot of confusion between collectability, investment potential and rareness. Sometimes the three don't overlap with one another in respect of various brands and models of instrument.

There are some rare instruments that are very collectable and will probably increase in value...near mint, custom colour preCBS Fenders for example.

There are some instruments that are not very rare yet are very collectable and will probably continue to increase in value...early 80's Arias, Ibanezes and Yamahas for example.

There are some rare instruments that are not very collectable and probably won't go up in value...Michael Spalt or Basslab instruments for example.

There are some collectable instruments that are not very rare and are unlikely go up in value...Ernie Ball basses in limited edition finishes for example.

There are some collectable instruments that are rare and are unlikely to go up in value...Ernie Ball NAMM graphite necked and 20th Anniversary basses for example.

etc. etc.

There are some rare instruments that will go up in value and aren't very collectible [i]at the moment[/i]...and I'm not saying what I think those are because last time I did that, I couldn't afford them any more.

[size=4]I'd suggest that any new instrument is not going to develop investment potential for at least 30 years...and if someone could see that far into the future, their talents and time would probably be better spent in other fields of investment. [/size]

[size=4]Investment potential usually comes about because of a close association with history. Fender have a close association with 60's music for example. Racing Ferraris go for massive sums of money because of their association with historic races. Typically properties that have some kind of history also go for higher sums. [/size]

I don't think people who buy a new boutique bass do it for investment value. From what I've observed I think they buy high end basses for similar reasons that non musicians might buy a fancy grained piece of furniture like a table or chest of drawers. The instruments are very decorative, functional and usually high quality pieces of craftsmanship.

[stingrayPete1977]

Just because you see you're favourite pro on stage with a burst and tort fender don't think for a minute these people done have a healthy personal interest in music, I know a pro who is a member here who has a fantastic collection of rare and custom built basses but they are mainly for his pleasure in the studio rather than his main gig although they do on occasion get out.

[molan]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1377516776' post='2188320']
If you want to know about buying guitars for investment look no further. Here is an article from the 'Wall Street Journal' quoting a world renowned, vintage guitar collector and expert.

[url="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324436104578579071945355516.html"]http://online.wsj.co...1945355516.html[/url]


[/quote]

These are vintage and not new though?

I certainly agree that it's possible to make some money on vintage instruments (although the market is still pretty dead at the moment).

[molan]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1377520427' post='2188371']
Just because you see you're favourite pro on stage with a burst and tort fender don't think for a minute these people done have a healthy personal interest in music, I know a pro who is a member here who has a fantastic collection of rare and custom built basses but they are mainly for his pleasure in the studio rather than his main gig although they do on occasion get out.
[/quote]

I know just such a person - usually gigs with a new'ish Fender P. Has 45 other instruments that only get used in the studio on session work

Everything does get played though.

[matski]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1377443666' post='2187576']
Nah. High end basses are for middle-aged men with lots of disposable income. The same market that Porsche are in. I've never actually seen anyone gig a Fodera though, maybe it happens, maybe it doesn't.
[/quote]

I saw a bloke play a Fodera at a gig once. Only for one song,mind you - for the rest of the set he played a Fender. Go figure....

[Pinball]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1377520857' post='2188390']
I know just such a person - usually gigs with a new'ish Fender P. Has 45 other instruments that only get used in the studio on session work

Everything does get played though.
[/quote]
I think that's fair enough except that 45 sounds a little excessive to me, unless you have lots of arms that is.

Note: lucky him I couldn't afford to keep them strung

[molan]

[quote name='Pinball' timestamp='1377522016' post='2188405']

I think that's fair enough except that 45 sounds a little excessive to me, unless you have lots of arms that is.

Note: lucky him I couldn't afford to keep them strung
[/quote]

I don't think he pays for strings

[Kiwi]

[quote name='matski' timestamp='1377521355' post='2188398']
I saw a bloke play a Fodera at a gig once. Only for one song,mind you - for the rest of the set he played a Fender. Go figure....
[/quote]
To my ears Foderas sound very similar to jazz basses!

[Lowender]

[quote name='Kiwi' timestamp='1377525660' post='2188451']
To my ears Foderas sound very similar to jazz basses!
[/quote]

But not quite as good.

[lonestar]

Dentists and lawyers

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1377522254' post='2188410']
I don't think he pays for strings
[/quote]
Might be the same bloke, lol. The guy I am thinking of plays a Lakland though so he has not gone all out Fender just yet, maybe he saving up for one

[jazzyvee]

[quote name='leroydiamond' timestamp='1377464407' post='2187910']
It has more than paid its way and owes me nothing. It would be an easy sell, but not at more than I paid for it. However the money I have earned with it, together with the joy it offers due to its excellent build has made it an excellent investment.
[/quote]

Yep I agree with that sentiment.