Are high end basses for investors or musicians?

[molan]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1377868834' post='2193020']


I think you're missing the point. Buying something as an investment doesn't mean that it [b]will[/b] rise in price, just that somebody has convinced the buyer that it will. If I'd bought Santander shares in 2010 for the price of a Fodera, I could now sell them and get myself a brace of matching Squiers.

In the case of basses, by the time you've worked out that a particular one would be a good investment because the price would rise enormously, the price has risen enormously. However, those particular ones would also probably have been ones that you'd have avoided as a player when they were cheap because they were crap (75% of 70s Fenders, all Hofner violin basses).
[/quote]

Sorry - I am indeed confused

I thought people were discussing whether people were actually buying new basses as investments (as in rising in value to be worth more than they paid) rather than trying to convince themselves that they were making a good purchasing decision based on manufacturer marketing hype.

As you've pointed out there's a huge difference here. No 'sensible' person is going to believe the hype because new basses will, in almost every case, fall in value and not rise.

However I can totally see people fooling themselves into thinking of something as an investment because the fall in value might not be as fast as something else.

Maybe it's the definition of 'investment' that's in question

[tauzero]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1377870067' post='2193043']
Maybe it's the definition of 'investment' that's in question
[/quote]

Not so much "investment" but "as an investment". Don't forget all the caveats about the price of shares, houses, etc can go down as well as up. Even petrol goes down in price occasionally. "Investment" is just another word for "bet".

[Mornats]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1377870067' post='2193043']
Maybe it's the definition of 'investment' that's in question
[/quote]

Nope, the guy in the shop was pretty clear that the American made Fenders were made by Fender for the investment market and not for players.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1377883861' post='2193266']
Nope, the guy in the shop was pretty clear that the American made Fenders were made by Fender for the investment market and not for players.
[/quote]

I don't think he is right, more a casual comment with an element of truth as there may have been some people who buy purely for (a very patient and hopeful) investment, probably more a comment about the difference between MiM and MiA price and quality

[Mornats]

To put it in context I'd just told him that I'd played a Squire VM 77 Jazz, a MiM Fender Jazz and a MIA Fender Jazz with Custom Shop pickups. The Squier was the best one out of the lot by far. The MIA Jazz had a slightly better sound due to the pickups but those pickups ain't worth £900... So his response was that the US models weren't made for players.

My opinion is that MIA Fenders are lacklustrely made as they can sell them on the strength of the brand name and the Squiers have to be good to compete in a very crowded and competitive market. Or to put it another way, Squier has to try harder whilst MIAs don't. His opinion was that they deliberately make MIA basses with flaws to put players off from buying them. Then he started whittering on about them being made for investors (despite very few, if any, that have been made in the last 10 years increasing in value at all). Very strange bloke.

[molan]

[quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1377898124' post='2193500']
To put it in context I'd just told him that I'd played a Squire VM 77 Jazz, a MiM Fender Jazz and a MIA Fender Jazz with Custom Shop pickups. The Squier was the best one out of the lot by far. The MIA Jazz had a slightly better sound due to the pickups but those pickups ain't worth £900... So his response was that the US models weren't made for players.

My opinion is that MIA Fenders are lacklustrely made as they can sell them on the strength of the brand name and the Squiers have to be good to compete in a very crowded and competitive market. Or to put it another way, Squier has to try harder whilst MIAs don't. His opinion was that they deliberately make MIA basses with flaws to put players off from buying them. Then he started whittering on about them being made for investors (despite very few, if any, that have been made in the last 10 years increasing in value at all). Very strange bloke.
[/quote]

Very strange indeed - the MIA Standard is very much Fender's 'workhorse' instrument. Everything else they make works up or down the scale from here. There's no way anyone would buy something like this as an investment (in any sense of the word).

Sounds like he was just trying to make a sale and randomly spewing out any old crap to clinch the deal

[Mornats]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1377902494' post='2193571']
Sounds like he was just trying to make a sale and randomly spewing out any old crap to clinch the deal
[/quote]

I'd have thought the same but I was playing the MIA Fender in his shop and was telling him about the Squier being a better bass and he agreed then said the MIAs weren't made for players. So he was guiding me more into buying a Squier from the other shop. Strange.

[molan]

[quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1377980444' post='2194420']
I'd have thought the same but I was playing the MIA Fender in his shop and was telling him about the Squier being a better bass and he agreed then said the MIAs weren't made for players. So he was guiding me more into buying a Squier from the other shop. Strange.
[/quote]

Believe it or not that's a classic sales technique that retail people are trained in.

If they are fairly sure you are unlikely to buy the more expensive item then the aim is to close the sale on the cheaper one by making negative comments about the expensive one.

Conversely if you're leaning towards the more expensive one then they are taught to say just how much nicer that one is compared to the lower priced one.

I'm not sure how often this happens in guitar shops but it's pretty standard car sales stuff (and I'm sure lots of other markets as well).

[Pinball]

In this case he advised Mornats not to buy an expensive bass and told him that as he was happy with his existing bass, other than the sound, the best bet was to decide on the sound he wanted and to upgrade the pickups
No sale pushed for at all. It was pretty strange really.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='Pinball' timestamp='1377987273' post='2194509']
In this case he advised Mornats not to buy an expensive bass and told him that as he was happy with his existing bass, other than the sound, the best bet was to decide on the sound he wanted and to upgrade the pickups
No sale pushed for at all. It was pretty strange really.
[/quote]

Sounds like he's a nice, honest guy with his own opinions about why MIA basses are made.

[skej21]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1378021728' post='2194665']


Sounds like he's a nice, honest guy with his own opinions about why MIA basses are made.
[/quote]

Sounds like a poor salesman that uses his ill informed opinion rather than well-researched product knowledge and facts in discussions with his customers. If he did have product knowledge, he would have seen an opportunity to inform the customer of the differences of the basses and then left the customer to make their own decision based on the facts.

That's just my opinion though

[Pinball]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1378021728' post='2194665']
Sounds like he's a nice, honest guy with his own opinions about why MIA basses are made.
[/quote][quote name='skej21' timestamp='1378022598' post='2194673']
Sounds like a poor salesman that uses his ill informed opinion rather than well-researched product knowledge and facts in discussions with his customers. If he did have product knowledge, he would have seen an opportunity to inform the customer of the differences of the basses and then left the customer to make their own decision based on the facts.

That's just my opinion though
[/quote]

Two different views of the same thing. I have a biased view thanks to the fact that I was looking to buy a guitar and took mine along just for interest expecting to be offered 50% of what it was worth and he took one of mine in a straight exchange because he really liked my guitar. He seems to treat the stock as his private collection. I like him as his heart is in the right place, even if his views are sometimes err interesting.

[Mornats]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1377980753' post='2194425']
Believe it or not that's a classic sales technique that retail people are trained in.

If they are fairly sure you are unlikely to buy the more expensive item then the aim is to close the sale on the cheaper one by making negative comments about the expensive one.

Conversely if you're leaning towards the more expensive one then they are taught to say just how much nicer that one is compared to the lower priced one.

I'm not sure how often this happens in guitar shops but it's pretty standard car sales stuff (and I'm sure lots of other markets as well).
[/quote]

Nah, the cheap bass was in another shop. The only one he was selling was the expensive one. Oh and as Pinball said, he advised me to keep looking and mod my existing basses. I can never work the guy out lol. I think he just likes to talk

[CPBass]

[quote name='cloudburst' timestamp='1377450565' post='2187687']
With the fscs only protecting £85k per bank that goes tits-up, you can run out of banks when trying to save fairly safely. So given the eggs/baskets scenario and the fact that you don't actually make a lot of interest on savings these days, it makes sense (certainly for me) to buy commodities which are not going to lose money, may gain a little and can be enjoyed too.

CB
[/quote]

+1 my basses may not be 'investments' but with the savings rates being poor they are a lot more fun than an ISA.

[BassTractor]

Sending someone to another shop can be an integral part of building up one's own name too, innit.
Sales theories differ there, but I like it, have always done it, and claim I've seen the reward when people either come back or send their friends and neighbours. Of course the shop must fit the concept. I doubt the "One Quid" store on the corner will survive long by sending customers to other "Below £1.01 But More Than £0.99" stores.

Not saying the weird opinionated guy without doubt has that perspective, but he very well may have.

[tauzero]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1377889491' post='2193366']
I don't think he is right, more a casual comment with an element of truth as there may have been some people who buy purely for (a very patient and hopeful) investment, probably more a comment about the difference between MiM and MiA price and quality
[/quote]

But in the case of the Custom Shop limited editions, he is right. See [url="http://www.fender.com/custom-shop/series/limited-edition/"]http://www.fender.com/custom-shop/series/limited-edition/[/url] which has nothing about the instruments in playing terms, but does say "Each Custom Shop Limited Edition instrument is only available for a short time, which makes it eminently collectible and adds to its investment value.". So Fender are aiming these instruments at (deluded) investors rather than players.

[gjones]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1378121786' post='2195897']
But in the case of the Custom Shop limited editions, he is right. See [url="http://www.fender.com/custom-shop/series/limited-edition/"]http://www.fender.co...imited-edition/[/url] which has nothing about the instruments in playing terms, but does say "Each Custom Shop Limited Edition instrument is only available for a short time, which makes it eminently collectible and adds to its investment value.". So Fender are aiming these instruments at (deluded) investors rather than players.
[/quote]

People who buy these instruments are usually 55 year old dentists. It's either a guitar or a Harley Davidson.

EDIT : Sometimes both

Edited September 2, 2013 by gjones

[BigRedX]

But these aren't high-end instruments. Just expensive ones.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1378126780' post='2195992']
But these aren't high-end instruments. Just expensive ones.
[/quote]
You can't polish a turd but you can roll it in glitter!

[jazzyvee]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1378127039' post='2195999']
You can't polish a turd but you can roll it in glitter!
[/quote]
I hope to be in a situation where I can re-quote that effectively . :-) LOL

[BassTractor]

[quote name='jazzyvee' timestamp='1378132845' post='2196091']
I hope to be in a situation where I can re-quote that effectively . :-) LOL
[/quote]

Huh? You want to be in the centre of Cardiff on a Saturday night and say that to the girls there?
Tsk tsk.

[molan]

[quote name='gjones' timestamp='1378124717' post='2195952']


People who buy these instruments are usually 55 year old dentists. It's either a guitar or a Harley Davidson.

EDIT : Sometimes both
[/quote]

I don't think there's many people who be in the either/or camp. Minimum entry price on one is way higher than the other.

Definitely lots of people who buy both though.

Interestingly Harley also try to sometimes position their bikes as investments and also bring out limited edition models every year that are big, big money.

Maybe both should be forced to say "the value of investments in our products can go down as well as down". . .

[stingrayPete1977]

Harley-Davidson LE P Bass has almost certainly already been discussed before now?

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='Mornats' timestamp='1377898124' post='2193500']
To put it in context I'd just told him that I'd played a Squire VM 77 Jazz, a MiM Fender Jazz and a MIA Fender Jazz with Custom Shop pickups. The Squier was the best one out of the lot by far. The MIA Jazz had a slightly better sound due to the pickups but those pickups ain't worth £900... So his response was that the US models weren't made for players.

My opinion is that MIA Fenders are lacklustrely made as they can sell them on the strength of the brand name and the Squiers have to be good to compete in a very crowded and competitive market. Or to put it another way, Squier has to try harder whilst MIAs don't. His opinion was that they deliberately make MIA basses with flaws to put players off from buying them. Then he started whittering on about them being made for investors (despite very few, if any, that have been made in the last 10 years increasing in value at all). Very strange bloke.
[/quote]

Oddly....

I had my JV Squier up for sale last year. As you might (or might not) it's in brilliant condition and seems to be a model that the (perceived) value of is going up. It probably just about fits into the bracket of "basses to think about if you want to buy an investment" -Although I bought it cos I liked it if anything the value of it going up put me off playing it - At the time I was using a bike to get around and was worried about damaging it in a crash so stuck it up for sale.

Well one fella who was a definate to buy it, was arranging times and the like and he was telling me about his current basses - which included a mexican P bass, and a US P bass. I asked him why he wanted to pay £1.2k for my JV - the answer was to play as a beater bass so he could keep his brand new USA P bass safe in it's case under the bed to keep it's value as an investment!!!
Not really understanding his logic, nor wanting to see my JV sold and trashed I pointed him to some cheaper nice MIJ P basses.

Strange bloke too!

[fretmeister]

Every instrument I've owned has been gigged.

From my very first Hohner Arbor Series MXJ guitar to my Hyperbass. In the current stable I have other Zons, Marleaux, Status, Fender and (wait for it...) a Daisy Rock Butterfly bass!

I see no point in having them and not playing them.


And as I'm one of the much derided lawyers who are the ones apparently hoovering up high end basses for investments - all I can say is Bollocks. I've never met a colleague who has bought a new instrument as an investment. Ever.

HIgh end new instruments are not investments. They are merely luxury goods like Ferrari's and Saville Row suits.

It's up to the potential buyer to decide how they want to spend the money they have earned.

If a person wants a luxury item and can afford it, then that is a matter for them alone. If they can afford it, but don't like it then not buying it is a matter for them alone.

If a person can't afford it but desires to own it there seems to be 2 general reactions - to either make it an aspirational item, worthy of saving up and sacrificing other non-essential spending or they can bitch about how crap the item is, or how crap those who do have the means to buy it are.

Most amusingly, an awful lot of the people bitching have never been in the same room with a Fodera / Ritter / whatever. Let alone played one.