Are high end basses for investors or musicians?

[oggiesnr]

In almost all cases "limited editions" are pure marketing to get the first purchaser to part with silly money. Because they then tend to be kept pristine they gain very little and often just lose money.

True classics tend to be instruments (or whatever) where the numbers have been whittled down by usage and wastage so they are genuinely rare AND have some desired quality. A classic case is the Gibson F5 mandolins made in the 1920's by Lloyd Loar. Now fetching well into six figures but these were instruments designed to be played. He made (it is thought) 326 of them and the whereabouts of 228 is known but they weren't made as special editions.

Steve

[leftybassman392]

Well I have a SeiBass headless Original 5, a 1984 Wal Custom, and a Porsche Boxster.

All were secondhand, none of them cost anywhere near what I'd have had to pay for new, all are very good at what they do and all have been gigged in a professional capacity. Except the car. That's just for fun and because I could afford it after a healthy PPI payout.

I don't have a problem with people buying for investment, but not for me.

I should add that in due course I will likely sell the Wal for more than I paid for it, but I certainly didn't buy it with that in mind. Actually it's quite an interesting little story - another time perhaps.

Edited September 2, 2013 by leftybassman392

[sambucadan]

Well they're not REALLY high end but my two Warwicks have been gigged to death and my go to bass now is a USA Spector ns5 I got second hand off here, If I could afford another brand new USA Spector it'd still get beer and sweat on it at pub gigs, I'd still do neck bends and it'd have knocks on it, basses are for playing not hiding away in a case... having said that I do baby them between weekend gig abuse

[krysh]

[quote name='sambucadan' timestamp='1378241546' post='2197673']
Well they're [b]not REALLY high end[/b] but my two Warwicks have been gigged to death and my go to bass now is a USA Spector ns5 I got second hand off here, If I could afford another brand new USA Spector it'd still get beer and sweat on it at pub gigs, I'd still do neck bends and it'd have knocks on it, basses are for playing not hiding away in a case... having said that I do baby them between weekend gig abuse
[/quote]

true.

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1378142680' post='2196242']

HIgh end new instruments are not investments. They are merely luxury goods like Ferrari's and Saville Row suits.

It's up to the potential buyer to decide how they want to spend the money they have earned.

If a person wants a luxury item and can afford it, then that is a matter for them alone. If they can afford it, but don't like it then not buying it is a matter for them alone.

If a person can't afford it but desires to own it there seems to be 2 general reactions - to either make it an aspirational item, worthy of saving up and sacrificing other non-essential spending or they can bitch about how crap the item is, or how crap those who do have the means to buy it are.

Most amusingly, an awful lot of the people bitching have never been in the same room with a Fodera / Ritter / whatever. Let alone played one.
[/quote]

I think there is a certain amount of truth in this...

Rob

Edited September 4, 2013 by CamdenRob

[jazzyvee]

[quote name='fretmeister' timestamp='1378142680' post='2196242']
It's up to the potential buyer to decide how they want to spend the money they have earned.

If a person wants a luxury item and can afford it, then that is a matter for them alone. If they can afford it, but don't like it then not buying it is a matter for them alone.

If a person can't afford it but desires to own it there seems to be 2 general reactions - to either make it an aspirational item, worthy of saving up and sacrificing other non-essential spending or they can bitch about how crap the item is, or how crap those who do have the means to buy it are.

Most amusingly, an awful lot of the people bitching have never been in the same room with a Fodera / Ritter / whatever. Let alone played one.
[/quote]

True, might I add that most bitching i've read about high end basses is sadly focused on the cost rarely because they think they sound bad. It's an investment in me not the instrument, my enjoyment is the return I get from playing. When it comes to selling, I'm happy to get the best price I can.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='jazzyvee' timestamp='1378287048' post='2198057']
True, might I add that most bitching i've read about high end basses is sadly focused on the cost rarely because they think they sound bad. It's an investment in me not the instrument, my enjoyment is the return I get from playing. When it comes to selling, I'm happy to get the best price I can.
[/quote]

We did have a debate on here, in Off Topic, about whether we resented success or achievement, whether it was a sign of the times we live in - so we find ourselves disparaging Foderas and Ritters and some professionals, in an age when many are struggling for even the basics and employment is limited for so many.

I think if all was well in the world, we'd be having a slightly different debate.

That said, I was thinking of the line that [i]everything[/i], perhaps, is an investment - it's just that the dividend is paid differently. You might not make a financial return on a Ritter in this market, but if you appreciate the music, the instruments, and find value and wonder under your fingertips every time you play it.... well, the dividend has been paid

[leroydiamond]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1378288439' post='2198083']
We did have a debate on here, in Off Topic, about whether we resented success or achievement, whether it was a sign of the times we live in - so we find ourselves disparaging Foderas and Ritters and some professionals, in an age when many are struggling for even the basics and employment is limited for so many.

I think if all was well in the world, we'd be having a slightly different debate.

That said, I was thinking of the line that [i]everything[/i], perhaps, is an investment - it's just that the dividend is paid differently. You might not make a financial return on a Ritter in this market, but if you appreciate the music, the instruments, and find value and wonder under your fingertips every time you play it.... well, the dividend has been paid
[/quote]

+1.

[Dave Vader]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1378288439' post='2198083']
That said, I was thinking of the line that [i]everything[/i], perhaps, is an investment - it's just that the dividend is paid differently.
[/quote]

I invested in a Scotch egg yesterday, it paid out in tasty goodness. i was happy. :B

[CamdenRob]

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1378289716' post='2198098']
I invested in a Scotch egg yesterday, it paid out in tasty goodness. i was happy. :B
[/quote]

Eating it was a wise choice...If you put it in a Uncle's loft for Forty years I'm not sure it would be holding it's value...

Rob

[Gust0o]

[quote name='Dave Vader' timestamp='1378289716' post='2198098']
I invested in a Scotch egg yesterday, it paid out in tasty goodness. i was happy. :B
[/quote]

It's paid out a savoury dividend

I had to think carefully about how I worded that!

[Colonel36]

[stingrayPete1977]

Can you lot stop yoking around please?

[tauzero]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1378140105' post='2196194']
I don't think there's many people who be in the either/or camp. Minimum entry price on one is way higher than the other.
[/quote]

I didn't think Foderas were that much more expensive than Harleys. Not unless you have a fretless, anyway.

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1378140105' post='2196194']
Interestingly Harley also try to sometimes position their bikes as investments and also bring out limited edition models every year that are big, big money.
[/quote]

When I used to frequent the newsgroup rec.motorcycles, the line about Harleys being an investment was often trotted out (as there was no other measure by which they could possibly be qualitatively be evaluated as anything other than inferior). Maybe that's Fender's thinking - a unicorn turd will be more valuable than a thoroughbred stallion...

[artisan]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1378391238' post='2199582']
I didn't think Foderas were that much more expensive than Harleys. Not unless you have a fretless, anyway.



When I used to frequent the newsgroup rec.motorcycles, the line about Harleys being an investment was often trotted out (as there was no other measure by which they could possibly be qualitatively be evaluated as anything other than inferior). Maybe that's Fender's thinking - a unicorn turd will be more valuable than a thoroughbred stallion...
[/quote]
Don't dis' the Harley !!!
my Superglide Custom will cry if i tell her you called her "inferior"
i gave up riding sport bikes a while ago,too many near death experiences riding R1's etc.

[molan]

[quote name='artisan' timestamp='1378394382' post='2199646']

Don't dis' the Harley !!!
my Superglide Custom will cry if i tell her you called her "inferior"
i gave up riding sport bikes a while ago,too many near death experiences riding R1's etc.
[/quote]

Harley negativity often falls into the same camp as 'expensive bass' negativity.

One person's definition of 'inferior' is very, very different when it comes to bikes - maybe even more so than basses!

Most Harley riders enjoy every minute of their time on their bike and a huge percentage have come from a sports bike background. To them their 'inferior' bike is actually far 'superior' to a high tech sports bike.

I think the bigger difference is that there's an even greater level of snobbery involved between HD riders and sports bike owners. Neither side can see any benefit or interest in each other's machines

I spent quite a few years owning both Harleys and top of the range sports bikes. Just for fun I used to turn up at events on the 'wrong' bike to see how my friends would react. I've been to big Harley events on a Ducati 999, Aprilia RSVR Factory, MV Agusta F4 1000, Suzuki GSXR 1000 and a few others. Most of my friends were fine but there were some people I thought I knew well who would actively avoid me if I was wearing sports bike leathers instead of obligatory black, well worn, Harley type gear.

The GSXR was probably the worst, I actually saw one HD guy spit at it!

Conversely I've been to a few more general bike events on a Harley and got similar reaction from sports bikers. I did have a heavy custom low rider chop for a while with a 2.1 litre drag bike engine, gearbox and clutch that pulled off the line like a train, that surprised a few 'crotch rocketeers'

Of course they would lose me round the first bend, lol.

The stupid thing is that I was the same person whatever I rode but some people couldn't see past the 'badge' I was wearing and genuinely treated me differently based on what I chose to ride to meet them

I think there's an increasing amount of this amongst bass players but it's more of a one way street. It's the 'he's got a Fodera, must be a lawyer who can't really play' brigade who are much worse than the other way round though. Let's face it - You don't see lots of threads with Fodera owners saying that people with low cost basses must have poorly paying jobs and are novice junior players do you?

[artisan]

Well said Molan,I agree with everything you just said regarding both bikes & basses.
Some of my sportbike riding freinds don't speak to me anymore since i got into Harley's,well screw 'em, its my life so i'll ride what i want to.
Had a few similar experiences with basses too,I turned up to an audition with a Zon I bought from Phil when the showroom was in Harrogate only to be told "you can't use that in this band,haven't you got a Fender ?".
I didn't bother joining that band,I don't like that kind of attitude.
As for high end basses if i could afford one i'd certainly be buying one as these days the Fender/EBMM/Gibson type basses just don't do it for me anymore,I just find them boring,but I wouldn't knock anyone for playing them.

Edited September 6, 2013 by artisan

[Gust0o]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1378424783' post='2200287']
I think there's an increasing amount of this amongst bass players but it's more of a one way street. It's the 'he's got a Fodera, must be a lawyer who can't really play' brigade who are much worse than the other way round though. Let's face it - You don't see lots of threads with Fodera owners saying that people with low cost basses must have poorly paying jobs and are novice junior players do you?
[/quote]

I've always suspected that the elephant in the room might be the old green-eyed monster. I'm not sure I'd want a Fodera, but I can imagine that many bassists might like the opportunity or option to procure one, even if they then spent the money on something else.

So, are we really rounding on the instruments? Or the individual, and the circumstances which have allowed them to indulge their passion to such an extent?

[jazzyvee]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1378461276' post='2200545']
I've always suspected that the elephant in the room might be the old green-eyed monster. I'm not sure I'd want a Fodera, but I can imagine that many bassists might like the opportunity or option to procure one, even if they then spent the money on something else.

So, are we really rounding on the instruments? Or the individual, and the circumstances which have allowed them to indulge their passion to such an extent?
[/quote]

Well Said.
Actually is there an agreed definition for a high end bass? Is it based on high price, high quality sound build etc or label, or high profile musician endorsing/using it?

Edited September 6, 2013 by jazzyvee

[Dave Vader]

I think it all comes from when we are kids at school, and the rich sod who's parents bought them a Gibson/Fender laughed at our pathetic Encores/Hondos, and told us we couldn't possibly be any good with those pieces of crap.
There is an instinctive reflex to equate the perfectly nice chap holding a fodera with the talentless 13 year old twunt with the brand new Les Paul and marshall stack at school.

Just a thought.

[tauzero]

[quote name='molan' timestamp='1378424783' post='2200287']
Most Harley riders enjoy every minute of their time on their bike and a huge percentage have come from a sports bike background. To them their 'inferior' bike is actually far 'superior' to a high tech sports bike.
[/quote]

It would appear that neither Harley riders nor sports bike riders can comprehend that there is a whole world of bikes that aren't sports bikes or Harleys. Oh well.

[molan]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1378465028' post='2200659']


It would appear that neither Harley riders nor sports bike riders can comprehend that there is a whole world of bikes that aren't sports bikes or Harleys. Oh well.
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure they've noticed other bikes on the road

They are, to a degree, fairly extreme opposites and there are few owners of both. However there are lots of bikers owning both an HD or a sports bike and an 'everyday' bike as well so lines become more blurred when considering something like 'naked' bikes for example.

I've also known a lot of people with off-road bikes as well (although not all of them actually get off Tarmac all that often).

I guess it's a bit like owners of something like a vintage pre-CBS Fender having a US Standard for everyday gigs and using the vintage bass for 'special occasion' events.

[Gust0o]

[quote name='tauzero' timestamp='1378465028' post='2200659']
It would appear that neither Harley riders nor sports bike riders can comprehend that there is a whole world of bikes that aren't sports bikes or Harleys. Oh well.
[/quote]

If your love is Harley, why would you? If your love was Suzuki or Honda, why would you? You like what you like, you don't need to bow and scrape to appease the egos and interests of others, surely?

[artisan]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1378469909' post='2200771']


If your love is Harley, why would you? If your love was Suzuki or Honda, why would you? You like what you like, you don't need to bow and scrape to appease the egos and interests of others, surely?
[/quote]
Quite,well put matey.
Same goes for basses,if someone doesn't like me playing my Esh & thinks i should be playing a Fender should i give a sh*t ?.
I think not !
As far as i am concerned they can take their self important opinion & shove it up their arse.

[tauzero]

[quote name='Gust0o' timestamp='1378469909' post='2200771']
If your love is Harley, why would you? If your love was Suzuki or Honda, why would you? You like what you like, you don't need to bow and scrape to appease the egos and interests of others, surely?
[/quote]

I really have no idea how you read that into what I wrote. Oh well.