PAT Testing. Why pay a certified professional?

[icastle]

...and of course in these days of "want to sue someone because you've been a tw*t?" nonsense, if you're a regular performer then I'd say it makes perfect sense to close down PAT issues before they get started.

[wateroftyne]

http://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/faq-portable-appliance-testing.htm

[KingBollock]

I am in no way considering this, I'm just curious. I have some certificates in electronics from a 2 year college course I did 20 years ago. I can't remember what they were all for now, one of them was fault diagnosis and repair and another was for digital design, there were at least a couple of others, one of which I got a credit for, the others only had pass or fail options. I know to work on household electrics you're supposed to be qualified or something, whenever I am asked to do something for someone else I always just think if I ever got challenged I could just whip out my certificates to at least prove I'm not clueless. Would those qualifications be enough to do my own PAT testing? Assuming I did enough research to find out exactly what it involves.

I remember my mate doing a 10 day course to learn how to repair washing machines and fridges and stuff, the electronics theory for it was very, very basic (and thanks to a teacher with a very thick Yorkshire accent my mate still pronounces ohms as orms), and he ended up setting himself up in business doing it.

[stingrayPete1977]

The info in that link is all well and good but if the venue's insurance require it for entertainment carried out by persons using equipment provided by someone other than the venue (as theirs is tested) then it is compulsory for the gig to happen.

A similar example and you will be able to find a very similar link on the net is that you can ride a moped legally on the road on your car licence with no cbt if you passed your test before a certain year (1997?), you won't find an insurance company to cover you though, insurance is compulsory to ride on the road so you are back to square one and for £65 you might as well just take the training and enjoy a choice of insurers.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1377629868' post='2189698']
The info in that link is all well and good but if the venue's insurance require it for entertainment carried out by persons using equipment provided by someone other than the venue (as theirs is tested) then it is compulsory for the gig to happen.
[/quote]

I only posted it to emphasise that it's not a legal requirement, which seems to be one of the misconceptions amongst musicians and venues alike.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='KingBollock' timestamp='1377629657' post='2189694']
I am in no way considering this, I'm just curious. I have some certificates in electronics from a 2 year college course I did 20 years ago. I can't remember what they were all for now, one of them was fault diagnosis and repair and another was for digital design, there were at least a couple of others, one of which I got a credit for, the others only had pass or fail options. I know to work on household electrics you're supposed to be qualified or something, whenever I am asked to do something for someone else I always just think if I ever got challenged I could just whip out my certificates to at least prove I'm not clueless. Would those qualifications be enough to do my own PAT testing? Assuming I did enough research to find out exactly what it involves.

I remember my mate doing a 10 day course to learn how to repair washing machines and fridges and stuff, the electronics theory for it was very, very basic (and thanks to a teacher with a very thick Yorkshire accent my mate still pronounces ohms as orms), and he ended up setting himself up in business doing it.
[/quote]
I will point you back to this, even on factories and schools the only term is competent person, it is used extensively throughout the regs book which funnily is not legally binding either but can be used in a law court.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1377626934' post='2189640']
Ps, There is no such thing as a certified professional in the electrical trade only a 'competent person', them having carried out a course which gained a certificate purely helps prove competency, pedant alert over
[/quote]

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1377630082' post='2189704']


I only posted it to emphasise that it's not a legal requirement, which seems to be one of the misconceptions amongst musicians and venues alike.
[/quote]
Which then leads to the smart arses on here who think they can tell that to the venue, I have seen entertainments licences, fire officers inspections and the venues insurance requirements demand them as part of the agreement.
I agree with you and you could point that out to the venue if they say its law, no its not you are correct but they still might be legally obliged by someone else which by default then does make it law, just not the same one

Edited August 27, 2013 by stingrayPete1977

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1377630261' post='2189710']

Which then leads to the smart arses on here who think they can tell that to the venue, I have seen entertainments licences, fire officers inspections and the venues insurance requirements demand them as part of the agreement.
I agree with you and you could point that out to the venue if they say its law, no its not you are correct but they still might be legally obliged by someone else which by default then does make it law, just not the same one
[/quote]

I would be one of the smart arses you refer to.

I let a local venue know when they insisted my gear be tested before I could play there. They were surprised to hear that it wasn't a legal requirement.

It was a local PAT tester that gave them the duff info. Funny that.

[Billy Apple]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1377610672' post='2189345']
The routine maintenance on an amp being...?
[/quote]

You don't have a valve amp then?

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='wateroftyne' timestamp='1377631341' post='2189727']


I would be one of the smart arses you refer to.

I let a local venue know when they insisted my gear be tested before I could play there. They were surprised to hear that it wasn't a legal requirement.

It was a local PAT tester that gave them the duff info. Funny that.
[/quote]
Next time you can point out that its not a legal requirement but may be compulsory if the insurance say so then.
You don't need a certificate for electrics on a rental property either but you do have to prove that the system is in a satisfactory condition, if you fail to do so if a tenant is injured (or just say they are) you can go to prison unless you prove you had it checked by a competent person or you are one, same grey area easily wiped out for £75 a year, and again most agencies won't let your property without one to cover their own back.

[wateroftyne]

All true.

But, despite popular perception, it's not a legal requirement to PAT test your gear.

That's all I'm pointing out.

Cor blimey. This is hard work.

:-)

[stingrayPete1977]

I hear you don't worry, I'm just pointing out that in the real world of gigging which is what matters imo the venues can rightly send you packing if you were asked, your not legal requirement won't wash.

[jezzaboy]

A quick search on the bay and you find 20 pat test stickers for £1.49 postage free.

[wateroftyne]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1377633390' post='2189759']
I hear you don't worry, I'm just pointing out that in the real world of gigging which is what matters imo the venues can rightly send you packing if you were asked, your not legal requirement won't wash.
[/quote]

Absolutely.

Interestingly though,having gigged all over the UK at venues large and small, I've only been challenged once... by the misinformed venue I mentioned earlier.

[stingrayPete1977]

Neither have I actually but I have a roll of stickers in the van anyway : lol:

[4 Strings]

[quote name='Billy Apple' timestamp='1377631854' post='2189733']
You don't have a valve amp then?
[/quote]

Yes, well, valves in the preamp. What should I be doing?

On topic, the only time I have never been challenged about PAT testing was when I took in a cassette player for my wife when she was about to give birth in hospital. Never been challenged for gigs.

I have thought about it though, the most compelling argument so far has been to show I've taken reasonable steps to avoid injury/damage.

If the test is annual, do these steps stop becoming reasonable on day 366 (quips about leap year aside!)?

[barkin]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1377643893' post='2189941']
I have thought about it though, the most compelling argument so far has been to show I've taken reasonable steps to avoid injury/damage.
[/quote]

The most compelling argument i've encountered, for having my/our gear PAT tested is that there are occassions when I/we won't get to do the gig if we don't comply...

Edited August 27, 2013 by barkin

[Mr Bassman]

I'm a City & Guilds qualified PAT tester (at my own expense)

I've never actually tested anything since I got my certificate a few years ago.

Ive never been asked on the gig to show any stickers or certificates, but occaisionally venues or agents have insisted on producing documents etc prior to the gig. It's mostly jobsworths who don't even know what P.A.T. stands for that make these demands.

I was booked for a wedding gig for over 2 months. A week before the bride contacted the bandleader and insisted that we submit copies of PAT certs & PLI by the end of the week. I suggested that the reply was "the rest of the band are out of the country and won't be back until the day before the gig" And anyway all the gear was less than 12 months old and didn't need a PAT.
When we turned up for the gig the jobsworth in question was off sick

It's up to the tester to determine the frequency of re-tests

If say the item is a kettle that is used 20 times a day then 6 monthly tests may be appropriate.

If it's a bass amp that is only used occasionally then maybe every 2 years will suffice.

Time for bed methinks

[4 Strings]

[quote name='barkin' timestamp='1377645731' post='2189967']
The most compelling argument i've encountered, for having my/our gear PAT tested is that there are occassions when I/we won't get to do the gig if we don't comply...
[/quote]

Not had that one yet, we'd just get the stuff tested for compliance if needed. Presumably public authority venues?

[4 Strings]

[quote name='Mr Bassman' timestamp='1377648271' post='2189984']
It's up to the tester to determine the frequency of re-tests

If say the item is a kettle that is used 20 times a day then 6 monthly tests may be appropriate.

If it's a bass amp that is only used occasionally then maybe every 2 years will suffice.
[/quote]

Really? So it's not an annual event, the tester writes on the sticker when he thinks a retest is required? Didn't know that.

What would stop him recommended every 6 weeks in order to get himself some more work?

Or, the other way around, being pressurised by the equipment owner to put a few years on.

[barkin]

[quote name='barkin' timestamp='1377645731' post='2189967']
The most compelling argument i've encountered, for having my/our gear PAT tested is that there are occassions when I/we won't get to do the gig if we don't comply...
[/quote]
[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1377858616' post='2192802']
Not had that one yet, we'd just get the stuff tested for compliance if needed. Presumably public authority venues?
[/quote]

Yup. And increasingly, it seems, hotels, social clubs, even village halls etc.

I get the impression that some of the people "in charge" at these places are only now becoming aware that they need to get their own stuff tested, which then raises questions in their minds about what others are bringing into their venue.

[4 Strings]

[quote name='barkin' timestamp='1377888214' post='2193346']
Yup. And increasingly, it seems, hotels, social clubs, even village halls etc.

I get the impression that some of the people "in charge" at these places are only now becoming aware that they need to get their own stuff tested, which then raises questions in their minds about what others are bringing into their venue.
[/quote]

But if it's not a legal requirement, they don't have to get their own stuff tested. I think its more to do with someone having discovered it and covering themselves.

[barkin]

[quote name='4 Strings' timestamp='1377889289' post='2193361']


But if it's not a legal requirement, they don't have to get their own stuff tested. I think its more to do with someone having discovered it and covering themselves.
[/quote]

Possibly not a legal requirement but if, for example, it's a requirement of their insurance policy (I don't know if it would be - just musing) then it amounts to pretty much the same thing for us.

Arguing with a venue owner/organiser/representative over the legal nitty-gritty isn't exactly going to enhance our standing or reputation. They're paying - we play by their rules.

It's such a trivial thing really, weighed against the several thousand quids worth of gear that gets carted around to gigs and the potential hassle it can save, that I really see no reason to not get everything tested. And if testing shows up what could potentially be a life endangering safety issue, that's gotta be good too.

Edited August 30, 2013 by barkin

[ambient]

A friend of mine does PAT testing, with anything electronic i.e. keyboards, some amps etc, he'd actually only test the lead for fear of damaging the circuits.
Computers in offices only have the detachable lead tested too, for the same reason.

[stingrayPete1977]

Our gear is high risk, portable, used in anger quite often (drum stands on leads etc) and most importantly class 1 meaning that it is earthed. I too don't test delicate gear either but I do test the lead and use a multimeter to check continuity from the earth pin to the chassis on the device. Why we would argue about doing that once a year even if it cost you £2 per item I have no idea?