Getting a more funky/smooth feel

[Annoying Twit]

How do you get a more funky or smooth feel?

To a large extent, I can play the kind of things I want to be able to play. (I don't have exceptional targets). But, I play something, and it sounds straight. Professional players may play something that is the same notes in more or less the same timing, but it just sounds so much more 'right', has a degree of funk in it that I can't duplicate, etc. Is there any method of building these skills, or is it just a matter of practice?

[51m0n]

IME listen to a tonne of groove playing first. But listen fo rthe right thing about that playing.

While you listen concentrate really hard on the way these guys are subdividing the beat. It is never, ever straight, they always push the first half of the subdivision a little longer than the second half, however often this is backed up by accenting the second half of the beat subdivision a little to make it punch through. There is a subtle berrrrrrDUP to each pair of subdivisions. If they dont play the first note in the paiir they still infer the extra time so you get ______DUP, and if they dont play the second note you get berrrrr__, the timing is always bang on. Especially in fills and fancy stuff, in fact they make simple things sound flashier just because they maintain this feel when playing simple stuff so well.

This creates a 'skip' to their playing, its all about how you accent subdivisions and where you exactly you put that subdivision. Vic Wooten has an astounding groove to his less flashy playing, and if you listen to him grooving he makes this so much a part of his sound.

If you dont do this naturally then you are going to spend a long time working on it. Take a track you love listening to that really shows this kind of thing off. Play along and really really pay attention to where your notes end and where they start within a beat. Now set up a metronome to quarter notes and play the groove to the metronome and absolutely nail its swing/skip/feel (insert whichever sounds right toy ou ). The notes dont matter, the feel does, in fact just play the rhythm on one note and nail it for the track. No one cares about the notes anyway , you cant hold no groove if you aint got no pocket!

[Fionn]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1377776683' post='2191611']
IME listen to a tonne of groove playing first. But listen fo rthe right thing about that playing.

While you listen concentrate really hard on the way these guys are subdividing the beat. It is never, ever straight, they always push the first half of the subdivision a little longer than the second half, however often this is backed up by accenting the second half of the beat subdivision a little to make it punch through. There is a subtle berrrrrrDUP to each pair of subdivisions. If they dont play the first note in the paiir they still infer the extra time so you get ______DUP, and if they dont play the second note you get berrrrr__, the timing is always bang on. Especially in fills and fancy stuff, in fact they make simple things sound flashier just because they maintain this feel when playing simple stuff so well.

This creates a 'skip' to their playing, its all about how you accent subdivisions and where you exactly you put that subdivision. Vic Wooten has an astounding groove to his less flashy playing, and if you listen to him grooving he makes this so much a part of his sound.

If you dont do this naturally then you are going to spend a long time working on it. Take a track you love listening to that really shows this kind of thing off. Play along and really really pay attention to where your notes end and where they start within a beat. Now set up a metronome to quarter notes and play the groove to the metronome and absolutely nail its swing/skip/feel (insert whichever sounds right toy ou ). The notes dont matter, the feel does, in fact just play the rhythm on one note and nail it for the track. No one cares about the notes anyway , you cant hold no groove if you aint got no pocket!
[/quote]

This is a great answer.

[redstriper]

Some people seem to have a naturally funky approach to playing and it's just there in the fingers almost from day one.
I've been playing for 35 years and it's sadly still not there for me.
I play reggae which suits a less funky style, but I'm still envious of more funky players.

This video lesson is very good at showing how to develop the funk, especially from 9 minutes, where Scott explains ghost notes:

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZBpy_8Xm_E&feature=share&list=UUWTj3vCqkQIsrTGSm4kM34g[/media]

[51m0n]

Hey Redstriper mate, funk is just reggae but faster , I've heard your stuff, its got a fantastic feel that certainly grooves like a train.

Seriously though there is a lot of correlation between the feels IME, there is that sense of pushing the first half of the subdivision longer, and accenting the second half. The difference is the size of the subdivisions, with a lot of funk being very much about the 16th note thing, and reggae being more about a very swung eight note feel.

Scott's lesson is great (as always), but the feel in it is exactly what I was trying to explain.

How many old school funk lines go something like :-

______DUP ||: berrrrrrrr DUP berrrrrrrr___ _____DUP_____DUP | _____ ___ _____ ___ _____ ___ _____ DUP :||

for instance? Note the clear gap between every note, in funk every note is a little short so that the next note is punchier, running notes to gether really leagato is harder to make sound funky.

If you play

[s]four[/s] and ||: one and two[s] and three[/s] and [s]fou[/s]r and | [s]one and two and three and four[/s] and :||

Dead straight it just isnt at all funky.

Edited August 29, 2013 by 51m0n

[51m0n]

Bootsy giving you the simplest groove ever that really exposes this [i]long/short-accented[/i] groove thing perfectly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iTkVOmSpwyQ

Learn this, its about 5 notes FFS! Play it exactly like Bootsy, really pay attention to the end of the notes, when they stop, where they are accented within the main line. Its funk gold...

[Annoying Twit]

Thanks all. I feel that I have some feel, but there's a big gap between me and the pros. And this is really the thing that I want to push. Part of my practice routine is a collection of riffs, and the riff from Herbie Hancock's Headhunters is part of that. It includes the staccato notes mentioned.

I've found if I play, for example, the introduction to the [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox-DmJ9H3ng"]Barney Miller[/url] theme by itself, then it sounds reasonably like the original (not super smooth or funky but better than me), except at the moment I have a trade off (playing the riff starting from an F - presume that's F minor) where the C to A transition is difficult for me and I either make it a bit wonky or get an overlap between those notes which sounds wrong. However, if I use the drum patterns in my Zoom B2 as a metronome, I find it tends to straighten out my timing even more, and it sounds a bit robotic then.

I've been experimenting with varying the timing of single root note riffs in order to make them sound a bit more funky, particularly when practicing syncopation (which I'm not yet good at, if I play too long I tend to fall back to playing the strong beats). Given your recommendations, I'll do more of that

It would help if people could recommend individual songs where there is simple, but well-timed, playing. Amazon MP3 purchase account and time-stretching software are both ready and waiting.

Edit: Thanks for the Bootsy Collins clip. I'll study it carefully. (Though, I must admit every time I hear of Bootsy Collins nowdays the first thing I think of is the Mighty Boosh Old Greg episode that explains how Bootsy 'got the funk').

More about Bootsy - it makes an interesting comparison to play the Dee-Lite song 'Groove is in the Heart' featuring Bootsy and then play the Herbie Hancock track 'Bring Down the Birds' that the riff was sampled from. The former sounds much more funky.

I'm going to make the video posted by redstriper the main part of my practice tonight. (I've done a bunch of scales already).

Edited August 29, 2013 by Annoying Twit

[51m0n]

Everything there is to know about funk in one video....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4uO1aH-iFA

[51m0n]

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1377779987' post='2191674']
Thanks all. I feel that I have some feel, but there's a big gap between me and the pros. And this is really the thing that I want to push. Part of my practice routine is a collection of riffs, and the riff from Herbie Hancock's Headhunters is part of that. It includes the staccato notes mentioned.

I've found if I play, for example, the introduction to the [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ox-DmJ9H3ng"]Barney Miller[/url] theme by itself, then it sounds reasonably like the original (not super smooth or funky but better than me), except at the moment I have a trade off (starting from an F) where the C to A transition is difficult for me and I either make it a bit wonky or get an overlap between those notes which sounds wrong. However, if I use the drum patterns in my Zoom B2 as a metronome, I find it tends to straighten out my timing even more, and it sounds a bit robotic then.
[/quote]

Take the 8th notes out of the drum machine, never allow anything other than straight quarter notes, anything else is going to remove your ability to groove.

WOrk with a handclap sound, its more natural than a BIP or click. Set it to quarter notes, play your groove.

Now half the speed and play the groove the same first with the metronome on 1 and 3, then far more importatnly with it on 2 and 4.

Thats where the funk is. Right there. You are the master of the [b]ONE[/b], not the machine, you accent one real hard, and swing through the beats, dont let them be straight ever, slide that time around - if it isnt making you walk like a pimp it isnt the funk

Remember its about not playing more than playing in classic funk too.

[quote name='Annoying Twit' timestamp='1377779987' post='2191674']
[b]It would help if people could recommend individual songs where there is simple, but well-timed, playing. Amazon MP3 purchase account and time-stretching software are both ready and waiting.[/b]
[/quote]

See above for starters

[redstriper]

Cheers Si and thanks for the big up
I've never intellectualised bass playing and I must admit your explanation goes over my head.
My playing is very basic and I've never had a lesson apart from the recent advent of youtube tutorials.

For the OP I'd recommend practise, practise and more practise along with finding a good teacher, but also to find your own voice and to play with other musicians, particularly a good drummer.

[Annoying Twit]

The zoom B2 has a fixed list of drum patterns, and not too many of them. It does have a metronome click, so maybe I'll use that. Otherwise, I'll wire something up so that I can mix raw audio with bass so I can choose whatever for accompaniment.

The Mighty Boosh episode on 'The Funk' is of course surreal fantasy, but Old Greg's criticism of Howard at the beginning of this clip certainly applies to me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZwRQDNIPog

[Bilbo]

I always say that playing with a great feel is about learning about when notes END as opposed to when they start.

Then again, I am about as funky as a cup of tea and sponge finger

[louisthebass]

I really like these two videos [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cl7Z8CfXn8k"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cl7Z8CfXn8k[/url] [url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIE8KlDku6k"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIE8KlDku6k[/url]

[redstriper]

Good vids Louis, thanks for the links.
Steve.

[51m0n]

Loving those Andy Irvine videos!

[louisthebass]

Glad you like them - found them by chance over the weekend .

[enricogaletta]

The suggestions you got above are very good, so keep always up your practice and when you reach a level you think is good enough, move to the next step, never study the same things, or you will be stuck with any further improvements.
The other great advice is listen, listen any kind of music, because sometime you can get amazing funk bass lines and feel in music that don't belong just to the funk styles.
It's always good learn licks and more but try also to "educate" your ears to the listening, this will help you to understand better a music style and improve your "own voice" on the bass.
Cheers. Enrico

[Annoying Twit]

The exercises in the book 'Bass Grooves Develop your groove and play like the pros in any style' by Ed Friedland appear to be helping with this. As well as 'practice practice practice.'

Edited October 7, 2013 by Annoying Twit

[JTUK]

I've skimmed this but it comes down to this...you either have it or you don't.
You can have varying degrees of this, but a guy with 'IT' can get a really long way
in 5 years that someone with 30 years plus can get no where near.

Sad fact that most of us have to reconcile at some point ( IMO ) when we have exhausted what we have.
We can put loads of time in but all that will do is maximise what YOU have ..and you should do this
but some people just have innate talent which takes them to places others can't get.
If they have also put the time in, that is where you get monster players from.


There is only so much you can kid the groove...

I don't know how you play so this is a general answer from my POV, as opposed to being directed at the OP...but I suspect the mere
fact we are talking about this is that the OP..to some degree..knows this as well.

Welcome to the normal world.

[Annoying Twit]

I'd be more worried if I can't improve. I've been working on the bassline for Herbie Hancock's 'Bring down the birds'. It's very easy to 'play' and the bassline is a short loop repeated throughout the entire piece. I've just noticed that I'm able to get the timing of the transition from the double hammer on that ends the loop to the root note that starts it again better.

I know I don't have the time or the energy to really become good at bass. At this stage in my life, I'm happy that I've managed to get back into it after a gap, and am currently improving. I'm never going to be an Ed Friedland, but at least I'm not some guy who has completely given up on playing their own music.

[51m0n]

IMO you can definite learn to groove.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1381272499' post='2236935']
IMO you can definite learn to groove.
[/quote]

Earlier on in this thread I was overconfident in certain skills. Some of the exercises in the Ed Friedland book have exposed some simple timing things that I thought I could do better than I can. Now that I'm practicing them and improving, I feel that there's a lot I can do to improve my 'groove'.

[JTUK]

[quote name='51m0n' timestamp='1381272499' post='2236935']
IMO you can definite learn to groove.
[/quote]

Depends where you start from...
I think you can get better... but this is one of those innate skills/qualities that some people can put miles on and others can barely cover at all.
I think people can learn to riff far easier but I've never equated that to a groove.
If others do, ok...

[Annoying Twit]

Months later update: my timing and feel are improving, but it's a slow process.

Edited January 9, 2014 by Annoying Twit

[Japhet]

I'd also suggest that you listen to some drummers who move the beat around. David Garibaldi is one of my favorites for moving the snare beat around which gives a real funk feeling to his playing (check out Oakland Stroke as an example). Moving accents, skipping notes entirely ad cutting up the rhythm are all big contributors to funk. You can do all of these things on the bass.