Learning Intervals by ear

[Tandro]

Hi All,

Just wanted some thoughts on methods to learn intervals by ear. There are some that say you should just try to slowly learn them devoid of any aids, so I guess keep playing the interval and listening to it until you learn it. There are others who swear by using something like a well know song that starts with a particular known interval, so you hear the interval and you have a 'reference' point to compare it against, for example a perfect 5th is the start of the Star Wars theme.

I've been trying to just learn them without using aids cause the reasoning is that methods with reference points, your brain has to stop and think of some other reference point and then realize what interval that is. So it takes more time, but with music you want to learn to instantaneously recognize something without extra time taken, no?

But with my slow progress, I'm just wondering if to use some reference points. Incidentally, I can pretty much recognize a 5th because when I first started doing this I used that Star Wars theme song and I hear that now, heh. Does it really make a difference which method I use to learn? Is one better than the other? If using references will I eventually just 'not' think about the reference and just know that particular interval in 'real time'?

Thanks for any experiences you may have on this.

[Hobbayne]

Theres an old Pat Boone song from the 50,s called Wonderful Time Up There, where the tune follows a walking bassline, root, third fifth etc. I learned from that to pick out intervals by ear.

[Bilbo]

Singing lines and playing them (not playing lines and singing them) is by far the most effective means. Links your ideas to your fingers. Remember to learn the intervals backwards as well (fifth to root not just root to fifth).

[JamesFlashG]

Play piano! best instrument for ear I think, i noticited the difference in being able to recognise intervals and especialy chords after a few weeks, I find it easier to visualise as well. Just sit there playing intervals/chords until your used to them (in context to a song or melody can help), another good way is by using an interval trainer websites that test you by playing different intervals / chords / scales and you select what you hear plenty of them about they are useful also if you have a smart phone you can get some pretty good aps taht do the same thing.

[u][b]TRANSCRIBING!! [/b][/u]Learn a song by [b]ear[/b], then notate it out properly with correct rhythm, key signature, time signature everthing! It takes a while at first is can be difficult so pick simple songs but by doing this your imporve all aspects of your ear and theory knowlege its just quite alot of effort / time an can be frustraiting. Thats my opinions anyway ^_^

Edited September 2, 2013 by JamesFlashG

[ambient]

Songs, that;s how I remembered them.

Major 2nd - Happy Birthday.
Minor 3rd - Greensleeves.
Major 3rd - While shepherds watched.
Major 4th - Auld Lang Syne.
Minor 6th - The theme from love story.
Major 6th - And now (Frank Synatra)
I can't remember what I used for a minor 7th
Major 7 I used the theme from superman.

After a while you just know them without referring to a song.

[funkle]

Bilbo is bang on the money; transcribing is key. By which I mean, learn how to play on the bass what you are listening to (NOT how to write down what you are hearing first, though that is important too).

I initially learned intervals years ago but found they weren't terribly useful to me on the bandstand.

I have found the 'Charlie Banacos' ear training methods far more effective than learning intervals in the way you describe. Examples of those that have used it include Mike Stern, Chris Tarry, Jeff Berlin, Bruce Arnold, Joe Hubbard, et al.

Good descriptions of this type of ear training reside at:
http://www.miles.be/articles/14-the-charlie-banacos-exercise (original at http://www.franksinger.com/ear%20training.htm)
http://www.joehubbardbass.com/473/ear-training/
http://christarrylessons.com/ear-training/

The software (free) which can get you started:
http://www.miles.be/software/4-functional-ear-trainer-basic

How to set the software:
http://www.joehubbardbass.com/473/ear-training/

Who was Charlie Banacos?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Banacos

Bruce Arnold is aguitarist with a good website who essentially breaks down the Charlie Banacos method into bits that he sells. I have bought stuff from him and found it useful. http://brucearnold.com/blog/ear-training-guided-tour/

Doing this and transcribing works synergistically. Transcribing is the ultimate musical vitamin, though - if you're around your bass I would generally say do that. The other ear training stuff I have posted here I have found ways to do whilst I am commuting. 20-30 mins a day whilst commuting adds up to a lot over years, and I have found transcribing easier since I have also done this formal ear training (caveat: though I have also learned solfege before I did that).

This cost years of slow discovery. I took my own advice about transcribing later than I should have. Hopefully your journey is much shorter.

Pete

[lowdown]

[quote name='JamesFlashG' timestamp='1378127960' post='2196013']
Play piano! best instrument for ear I think, i noticited the difference in being able to recognise intervals and especialy chords after a few weeks, I find it easier to visualise as well. Just sit there playing intervals/chords until your used to them (in context to a song or melody can help), another good way is by using an interval trainer websites that test you by playing different intervals / chords / scales and you select what you hear plenty of them about they are useful also if you have a smart phone you can get some pretty good aps taht do the same thing.

[u][b]TRANSCRIBING!! [/b][/u]Learn a song by [b]ear[/b], then notate it out properly with correct rhythm, key signature, time signature everthing! It takes a while at first is can be difficult so pick simple songs but by doing this your imporve all aspects of your ear and theory knowlege its just quite alot of effort / time an can be frustraiting. Thats my opinions anyway ^_^
[/quote]

I agree with all this [Along with Bilbo's suggestion)
Hearing intervals and chords came very quickly once I started learning Piano, suddenly I started hearing chords like
Minor 9th's with the nine and minor third (semi tones) in the middle of the chords. Busking standards started to fall into place after that.

[Tandro]

Thanks for all the info everyone! I am ashamed to say it though, but every point raised is something I am doing to a limited degree, something I've either done and stopped (for some stupid reason) or meaning to do (that never got anyone anywhere, now did it).

Because actual bass 'practice' time was so limited, I tried to see what I could offload to dead time when I was away from my bass. So as Pete alluded to, currently my ear training is basically relegated to my bus ride in the morning to work. I've got an app on my phone that plays various intervals that you try to recognise. While that is good and I'll keep doing it, I realise that is not enough (for me), especially when trying to learn it and not just for maintenance. With the noise and distractions I don't focus enough. Evidence of this is when I do the same thing but in some quiet at home/office, I can discern the intervals with more success and helps me 'learn' and internalize it better.

I've read quite a few different things that have mentioned Banacos, and I even used to use that software from miles.be on my old computer, not putting it on my new one! Transcription is always mentioned by everyone and I've got it written down as top priority on my 'music things to do' list (those lists need to be banished). As for keyboard, I actually got one early this year to get back into piano (did it when I was a kid) for the very purpose of harmony and visualizing all the theoretical concepts...and where is it sat, in the box.

I need to revamp my approach to this ear training, along with singing stuff. As mentioned by Bilbo, the ultimate goal for me is to link ideas to fingers. Unfortunately Pete, I have gone down the same road and I'm finding things at the cost of 'years of slow discovery'. But better now than later.

I was pleasantly surprised to find the Chris Tarry stuff available again! I thought it was all subscription based now.

One last thing on the Bruce Arnold One Note series, is it basically all this same stuff? Is it just him playing the cadence and a note or is there more meat to it and worth the investment?

[dlloyd]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1378134926' post='2196120']
Songs, that;s how I remembered them.

Major 2nd - Happy Birthday.
Minor 3rd - Greensleeves.
Major 3rd - While shepherds watched.
Major 4th - Auld Lang Syne.
Minor 6th - The theme from love story.
Major 6th - And now (Frank Synatra)
I can't remember what I used for a minor 7th
Major 7 I used the theme from superman.

After a while you just know them without referring to a song.
[/quote]

minor 7 = original theme from Star Trek
tritone = theme from the Simpsons
Perfect 5 = theme from Star Wars

[skej21]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1378127920' post='2196012']
Remember to learn the intervals backwards as well (fifth to root not just root to fifth).
[/quote]

Good idea but try not to confuse the interval reference (ascending/descending interval) with the key reference of the note (ie root to fifth, fifth to root) as they often end up with multiple numbers (ie a descending perfect fourth is fifth to root within a key... see lol).

It becomes confusing as descending intervals (fifth to root, major seven to root etc) are actually inversions of the ascending interval. For example, C to G is a perfect fifth as an ascending interval but G to C is a perfect fourth as a descending interval. So referring to the latter as (fifth to root) is confusing as the interval is a descending perfect fourth and could cause issues when having to recognise the correct interval in theory/aural examinations or when transposing music etc.

[ambient]

This site is REALLY useful for ear training, plus a load of other stuff.

I spent hours using the interval and chord exercises in the 1st year of my degree.

It's free too .

[url="http://www.teoria.com/exercises/"]http://www.teoria.com/exercises/[/url]

[lowdown]

[quote name='ambient' timestamp='1378287032' post='2198056']
This site is REALLY useful for ear training, plus a load of other stuff.

I spent hours using the interval and chord exercises in the 1st year of my degree.

It's free too .

[url="http://www.teoria.com/exercises/"]http://www.teoria.com/exercises/[/url]
[/quote]

Yep...Top, Top Site !

[xilddx]

[quote name='dlloyd' timestamp='1378275073' post='2197892']
minor 7 = original theme from Star Trek
tritone = theme from the Simpsons
Perfect 5 = theme from Star Wars
[/quote]
Minor 2nd - JAWS

[funkle]

[quote name='Tandro' timestamp='1378248816' post='2197819']
I need to revamp my approach to this ear training, along with singing stuff. As mentioned by Bilbo, the ultimate goal for me is to link ideas to fingers. Unfortunately Pete, I have gone down the same road and I'm finding things at the cost of 'years of slow discovery'. But better now than later.

I was pleasantly surprised to find the Chris Tarry stuff available again! I thought it was all subscription based now.

One last thing on the Bruce Arnold One Note series, is it basically all this same stuff? Is it just him playing the cadence and a note or is there more meat to it and worth the investment?
[/quote]

There are a number of Banacos exercises.

Step 1 is generally what Bruce Arnold calls the 'One Note' exercise. This is exactly the same as what you get for free with the software I linked to. However he does provide it in a nice portable format, and the accompanying book is useful. However if you're on the cheap the software works just fine. I think it took me 6-12 months to get this exercise at 20 mins per day 4-5 days per week.

Step 2a is to do what is sometimes called 'Key Note Recognition'. Once again the software is out there (at miles.be) and free. The note is always 'C', but the I-IV-V-I cadence changes key all the time, so you have to always work out the key (though as I said you always know the note played for reference against the key is C). I do find it is actually harder to do the Bruce Arnold version than the software version, so I generally did the Bruce Arnold version. I think this again took me 6-12 months to 'get' though I did other stuff at the same time.

Step 2b was to play a cadence (I-IV-V-I) and then simply sing the note you were asked to sing - root, 3rd, b2, whatever. The mp3 would then play the correct note and you could check you had it right. I did that at the same time as Step 2a and took about a 8-12 months over it.

I'm now doing Bruce Arnold's 'Ear Training for Fanatics' in the car, which is now working through singing pairs of notes over a drone. e.g for C, D#, I sing 'Do' and 'Di' in all 12 keys and then sing C/D# in each key [shifting their function in each key] - so: Do/Di in C, Sol/Si in F, Re/Me in Bb, etc. This is then done four 3 or 4 groupings, etc.

I think the next step is to do the Charlie Banacos/Bruce Arnold 'One Note' exercise with 2 notes simultaneously, then 3, etc. I hear Mike Stern made it to 4 notes simultaneously. Others have gone higher.

Like I said, I'm still way behind in doing as much transcribing as I ought to have done. This stuff I view as essential but no substitute for the work of listening, working out what is being played, and playing it on the instrument.

On the whole I would recommend the Bruce Arnold materials - he provides personal guidance and materials and he learned it directly from Charlie Banacos. Seems like a good resource to me.

Edited September 4, 2013 by funkle

[funkle]

I do have an issue with just learning intervals and linking them to songs. I'm not convinced it works. The difference between knowing what a major 3rd sounds like when it is 'Do'/'Mi' (root/3rd) versus what it is when it is 'Sol/'Ti' (5th/7th) is quite different.

I did learn the 'intervals' way first, and moved on to these other things afterwards because I wasn't sure it was helpful.

As ever, your mileage may vary. I hope that this is helpful.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='funkle' timestamp='1378302724' post='2198368']
I do have an issue with just learning intervals and linking them to songs. I'm not convinced it works. The difference between knowing what a major 3rd sounds like when it is 'Do'/'Mi' (root/3rd) versus what it is when it is 'Sol/'Ti' (5th/7th) is quite different.
[/quote]

With Banacos/Arnold method there is no such ambiguity because you always reference all notes to the key center rather than each other.

Edited September 13, 2013 by bassman7755

[funkle]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1379109325' post='2208906']


With Banacos/Arnold method there is no such ambiguity because you always reference all notes to the key center rather than each other.
[/quote]

Exactly.

[Guest bassman7755]

And futhermore there is no ambiguity about whether you are going up or down - you don't have to learn to hear the gap between 2 notes as both a 5th and a 4th depending on inversion, its just a single "key-function" that you are listening for.

Edited September 18, 2013 by bassman7755

[funkle]

[quote name='bassman7755' timestamp='1379507831' post='2213465']
And futhermore there is no ambiguity about whether you are going up or down - you don't have to learn to hear the gap between 2 notes as both a 5th and a 4th depending on inversion, its just a single "key-function" that you are listening for.
[/quote]

Again, I agree. Are you my long lost brother?

[SteveK]

Bit late to the thread, but anyway...
Whe methods mentioned above have their merit - what about the majority of time when you don't have an instrument to hand?
The beauty of relating intervals to two notes of a known tune is that it can be used anwhere, while walking the dog, sunning yourself on the beach, driving, on the train, pushing your trolley around Tesco's etc.
Using this method [b][u]in additon[/u][/b] to those above and you will be recognising intervals in no time.

[JTUK]

Play with a very decent piano player who can really walk you through the changes would be my choice...but finding that guy isn't easy.

Hearing a fith is a start but you have to be hearing 2 tones down and the like. Put yourself in a positiont where the gtr isn't the lead instrument
..maybe a horn should be..and then write out the standards in chart form so you can hear the interval and relate to it.... or the Nshville method

Another reason for getting away from gtr bands is that you might get a few more keys to move around in.

[TKenrick]

Couldn't have said it any better!

[quote name='funkle' timestamp='1378189870' post='2196690']
Bilbo is bang on the money; transcribing is key. By which I mean, learn how to play on the bass what you are listening to (NOT how to write down what you are hearing first, though that is important too).

I initially learned intervals years ago but found they weren't terribly useful to me on the bandstand.

I have found the 'Charlie Banacos' ear training methods far more effective than learning intervals in the way you describe. Examples of those that have used it include Mike Stern, Chris Tarry, Jeff Berlin, Bruce Arnold, Joe Hubbard, et al.

Good descriptions of this type of ear training reside at:
[url="http://www.miles.be/articles/14-the-charlie-banacos-exercise"]http://www.miles.be/...anacos-exercise[/url] (original at [url="http://www.franksinger.com/ear%20training.htm"]http://www.franksing...%20training.htm[/url])
[url="http://www.joehubbardbass.com/473/ear-training/"]http://www.joehubbar...3/ear-training/[/url]
[url="http://christarrylessons.com/ear-training/"]http://christarryles...m/ear-training/[/url]

The software (free) which can get you started:
[url="http://www.miles.be/software/4-functional-ear-trainer-basic"]http://www.miles.be/...r-trainer-basic[/url]

How to set the software:
[url="http://www.joehubbardbass.com/473/ear-training/"]http://www.joehubbar...3/ear-training/[/url]

Who was Charlie Banacos?
[url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Banacos"]http://en.wikipedia....Charlie_Banacos[/url]

Bruce Arnold is aguitarist with a good website who essentially breaks down the Charlie Banacos method into bits that he sells. I have bought stuff from him and found it useful. [url="http://brucearnold.com/blog/ear-training-guided-tour/"]http://brucearnold.c...ng-guided-tour/[/url]

Doing this and transcribing works synergistically. Transcribing is the ultimate musical vitamin, though - if you're around your bass I would generally say do that. The other ear training stuff I have posted here I have found ways to do whilst I am commuting. 20-30 mins a day whilst commuting adds up to a lot over years, and I have found transcribing easier since I have also done this formal ear training (caveat: though I have also learned solfege before I did that).

This cost years of slow discovery. I took my own advice about transcribing later than I should have. Hopefully your journey is much shorter.

Pete
[/quote]


Ron Gorow's book 'Hearing and Writing Music' is also a good resource, but I found that the Banacos exercises were more effective.

[Guest bassman7755]

[quote name='SteveK' timestamp='1380561130' post='2227116']
Bit late to the thread, but anyway...
Whe methods mentioned above have their merit - what about the majority of time when you don't have an instrument to hand?
The beauty of relating intervals to two notes of a known tune is that it can be used anwhere, while walking the dog, sunning yourself on the beach, driving, on the train, pushing your trolley around Tesco's etc.
Using this method [b][u]in additon[/u][/b] to those above and you will be recognising intervals in no time.
[/quote]

Well personally I found that being able to hear isolated melodic intervals to not be very useful when transcribing, jamming or just listening and I say this having studied this very intensively in the past for a year or so.

Hearing notes primarily as key functions on the other hand is massively useful in a way that quite difficult to explain unless you've seriously tried it.

I've come to conclusion though that brain actually remembers melodies as key functions and not as sequential intervals and I offer this quick mental exercise to (hopefully) demonstrate this ....

In your head, imagine the first three notes to "star spangled banner" now imagine the first three notes to "three blind mince" [b]before reading the rest of this post[/b] ...













I'm willing to bet that they both ended on the same imaginary pitch. Thats because internally you remembered both tunes as starting on different key functions of the same imagined key (5th and 3rd respectively). So called functional ear training is about learning to home in on that inherent "5thness" / "3rdness" in the starting notes of those tunes rather than employing mental gymnastics to try and isolate how far "up" or "down" each note is from another one. Its fundamentally a much more natural and stable way of perceiving music (IMO).

Edited October 11, 2013 by bassman7755