Stacking cabs

[Youngatheart]

Is there any reason why you can't stack a 1x15 on top of a 2x10. Trust me there is a sensible reason for me asking this

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='Youngatheart' post='219318' date='Jun 15 2008, 12:50 PM']Is there any reason why you can't stack a 1x15 on top of a 2x10. Trust me there is a sensible reason for me asking this [/quote]
That puts the non-directional lows closer to ear level and the directional mids down below your knees. Perfectly OK if you're in the habit of playing whilst standing on your head.

[bass_ferret]

Bill may be assuming that you are using a crossover for these cabs but I suspect you are intending to put the full signal through both. As has been said many times putting the same signal through different cabs can produce unpredictable results and is likely to sound bad which ever way you stack them.

[obbm]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='219442' date='Jun 15 2008, 08:55 PM']Bill may be assuming that you are using a crossover for these cabs but I suspect you are intending to put the full signal through both. As has been said many times putting the same signal through different cabs can produce unpredictable results and is likely to sound bad which ever way you stack them.[/quote]

Then how come the workhorse rig for years was a Trace 4x10 on top of a Trace 1x15 both fed with the same signal from Trace Amp?

In answer to the original question try it and see if it works for you.

[bass_ferret]

And even in the same cab that could be run bi-amp and full range. I think a lot depends on whether the cabs have been designed to work together and on some makes this appears to be the case as lots of happy users will testify. I never heard any problems with my EBS Neo 110 and 112 stack that was used in lots of adverts and featured in all the reviews so I guess they were designed to work together and complement each other.

But the thing is with a lot of gear you just dont know and mixing cabs from different brands was defo not designed to work together.

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='219442' date='Jun 15 2008, 03:55 PM']Bill may be assuming that you are using a crossover for these cabs but I suspect you are intending to put the full signal through both. As has been said many times putting the same signal through different cabs can produce unpredictable results and is likely to sound bad which ever way you stack them.[/quote]
I'm assuming he is not using a crossover. Tens will naturally have a wider midrange dispersion angle and a higher frequency response than fifteens, so the caveat applies with or without being crossed.

[quote]Then how come the workhorse rig for years was a Trace 4x10 on top of a Trace 1x15 both fed with the same signal from Trace Amp?[/quote]Because no manufacturer had, or has for that matter, any incentive to do better when they sell all the mediocre high profit margin junk they can crank out. And bassplayers are artists, not engineers, so by and large they just don't know any better.

[chris_b]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='219442' date='Jun 15 2008, 08:55 PM']....As has been said many times putting the same signal through different cabs can produce unpredictable results and is likely to sound bad which ever way you stack them....[/quote]
Who said that? You are going to have to quote specific examples.
2x10's have sat on top of 4x10's and 1x15's for years with no trouble and I have also successfully used cabs of different makes. Sorry, but that statement is just not true.

[chris_b]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='219554' date='Jun 15 2008, 11:35 PM']....Because no manufacturer had, or has for that matter, any incentive to do better when they sell all the mediocre high profit margin junk they can crank out. And bassplayers are artists, not engineers, so by and large they just don't know any better....[/quote]
Wow!! Dismissing the efforts of an entire billion dollar industry at a stroke... nice one!

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='chris_b' post='219591' date='Jun 15 2008, 08:16 PM']2x10's have sat on top of 4x10's and 1x15's for years with no trouble[/quote]
'No trouble' is a matter of opinion. Mine is that of a bass player who also happens to be an audio engineer. As for specific examples, that would be the simultaneous using of any two cabs that don't have identical phase response. Since no two cabs that don't use identical drivers in identical alignments can have identical phase response that makes every use of non-identical cabs a specific example. I'm not saying they can't sound acceptable, but they would sound better properly matched. Amongst other things.[quote]Wow!! Dismissing the efforts of an entire billion dollar industry at a stroke... nice one![/quote]
Just the instrument cab industry. The hi-fi, theater and PA guys got it right a half century ago, the instrument market segment is a wee bit slow on the uptake.

[chris_b]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='219597' date='Jun 16 2008, 02:39 AM']'No trouble' is a matter of opinion.... I'm not saying they can't sound acceptable, but they would sound better properly matched.

Just the instrument cab industry. The hi-fi, theater and PA guys got it right a half century ago, the instrument market segment is a wee bit slow on the uptake.[/quote]
Good, we got that cleared up.
Mixed speakers can sound OK but the sound can be bettered if you can hear the difference. CAN is the pivotal word here. Most of us are in the real world; the rock, pedal boarded, playing too loud, bad room acoustics world; so if you CAN'T hear the difference, the difference is not as important as the sound that you CAN hear. If the cabs sound good to you in what ever mix you have then they are a good combination for you, which is why the best advice is to make your mind up by listening to your choices and not to be put off by the “rules” of a different world.

In my opinion I drive a good car. There are many cars out there that are better but that doesn't make my car bad or mean that I should have brought a different car.

[charic]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='219597' date='Jun 16 2008, 02:39 AM']'No trouble' is a matter of opinion. Mine is that of a bass player who also happens to be an audio engineer. As for specific examples, that would be the simultaneous using of any two cabs that don't have identical phase response.[/quote]

In that case you'll be aware that such a subtle difference in phase would infact be neglectable in a band mix? Particularly if you mic each cab seperate and mix to desired levels.

Stick with the try it and see approach

Many people have told me certain microphone positions and editing techniques are ridiculous and will sound stupid. I done them anyway and then I get asked how because some sounded good (some sounded bad too). Sound is simple enough, the human ear however is another matter.

And lets face it anyway, how many people actually LISTEN to the bass in a song? Most people i know feel it and subconciously listen.

My £0.02

[bass_ferret]

I think you will find this has come up over and over again and those that actually know about this stuff have said over and over again that using different cabs for the same signal can produce unpredictable results. To get the very best sound possible matching cabs should be used.

If you cant hear the difference good for you, if the punters cant hear the difference ditto. Its not like your knobs will fall off or other more serious consequences. From my own experience I had a Peavey 1x15BW and a TX210 and it sounded sh*t - sounded better with just either cab on their own. So I sold the 1x15 and got another TX210 and it sounded as good as a Peavey stack could sound.

[chris_b]

[quote name='bass_ferret' post='219795' date='Jun 16 2008, 12:47 PM']....I think you will find this has come up over and over again and those that actually know about this stuff have said over and over again that using different cabs for the same signal can produce unpredictable results....[/quote]
Sorry, but my mate knew someone who's friend's dad said that the opposite was true.

[lowhand_mike]

i think the way you need to look at this is that guys like bill really know their stuff

but if you choose not to take that advice its fine, i have taken notice of alot of points and they have improved my sound. like turning my combo on its side so the 10's are vertically stacked. i will also be buying another 2x10 cab to complement it. (not the 15 like i had planned).
but like said play what you like, it's your money and gear after all.

[johnnylager]

[quote name='lowhand_mike' post='219869' date='Jun 16 2008, 02:22 PM']...like turning my combo on its side so the 10's are vertically stacked. i will also be buying another 2x10 cab to complement it.[/quote]
Don't buy an ABM cab if your gonna do this Mike, the 'ergonomic' design of the handles makes it a little wobbly as my foot will testify.

Edited June 16, 2008 by johnnylager

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='johnnylager' post='219879' date='Jun 16 2008, 02:32 PM']Don't buy an ABM cab if your gonna do this Mike, the 'ergonomic' design of the handles makes it a little wobbly as my foot will testify.[/quote]


cheers mate but i wasnt going to get the abm anyway, based on bill's and ferrets advice i beleive it would be wise to stay with the MAG voicing (also they cost too much).
just need to wok out how to stack em as they are slightly different sizes in depth and hight.

still gassing for bfm onmi 10 though or the tall boy 12.

Edited June 16, 2008 by lowhand_mike

[johnnylager]

[quote name='lowhand_mike' post='219891' date='Jun 16 2008, 02:39 PM']still gassing for bfm onmi 10 though or the tall boy 12. [/quote]
Ain't that the truth, this country needs a BFM builder. If I had time / ability / workshop / any more GAS leeway with Mrs Lager that i haven't already used up, I would!

[stevie]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='219554' date='Jun 15 2008, 11:35 PM']I'm assuming he is not using a crossover. Tens will naturally have a wider midrange dispersion angle and a higher frequency response than fifteens, so the caveat applies with or without being crossed.

Because no manufacturer had, or has for that matter, any incentive to do better when they sell all the mediocre high profit margin junk they can crank out. And bassplayers are artists, not engineers, so by and large they just don't know any better.[/quote]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't midrange dispersion a function of total radiating area? In other words, a single ten will have a wider midrange dispersion than a single 15, but two tens won't.

Are you seriously saying that no manufacturer of bass gear has any incentive to produce anything but mediocre, high profit margin junk because their target market is too ignorant to appreciate it? That's a bit arrogant, don't you think?

[chris_b]

[quote name='lowhand_mike' post='219869' date='Jun 16 2008, 02:22 PM']....i think the way you need to look at this is that guys like bill really know their stuff....[/quote]
I'm not questioning anyone's ability or knowledge, just how that knowledge is moulded into the advice that is given. I'm not happy when beginners ask questions and get techno speak and "a lot of people say ...." in return! It seems that people here look at the technical stuff and think "wow, I've got to do that", when they don't. Does anyone think that the icons of bass, Jamerson, Jaco and all the others knew anything about xmax or comb filtering or would even care if they were told? Did John Paul Jones or Stevie Wonder ever think, "I wonder why I sound like this"! These guys did what everyone should be doing and that is using their ears to listen and evaluate without worrying about SPL's etc.

While I find Bill Fitzmaurice's technical writing interesting, I know that at the end of the day Bill is also a businessman, he runs his own company and more importantly, seems to be running a crusade to tell the rest of the world they are making cabs the wrong way.

Well the “wrong way” has been pretty good to me and the rest of Rock and Roll for the last 60 years. There are many "right" ways and that advice has to be got across as well.

[chris_b]

[quote name='lowhand_mike' post='219891' date='Jun 16 2008, 02:39 PM']cheers mate but i wasnt going to get the abm anyway, based on bill's and ferrets advice i beleive it would be wise to stay with the MAG voicing (also they cost too much).[/quote]
Good man. You have illustrated my point exactly! Ferret wasn't giving any advice just propagating an "urban myth"!

[stevie]

[quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='219597' date='Jun 16 2008, 02:39 AM']'No trouble' is a matter of opinion. Mine is that of a bass player who also happens to be an audio engineer. As for specific examples, that would be the simultaneous using of any two cabs that don't have identical phase response. Since no two cabs that don't use identical drivers in identical alignments can have identical phase response that makes every use of non-identical cabs a specific example. I'm not saying they can't sound acceptable, but they would sound better properly matched. Amongst other things.
Just the instrument cab industry. The hi-fi, theater and PA guys got it right a half century ago, the instrument market segment is a wee bit slow on the uptake. [/quote]

So, in your audio engineer's opinion 2 x 15s or 8 x 10s will always sound better than a 1 x 15 and a 4 x 10 because they are "properly matched". Is that right?

And bass players, unlike the hi-fi, theatre or PA guys, have failed to realize this because they are "a wee bit slow on the uptake". Bill, have you heard of a book called "How to win friends and influence people"?

[lowhand_mike]

think bill means that as the "norm" for bass amps and indeed guitar amps was started back in the day as horizontal 2x10s and 4x10s when audio engineering was a little less refined it has been carried through, and as we tend to accept what we are given unquestionably, manufacturers can produce cabs that 'work' at a reduced R&D cost and as an accepted aesthetic.
IF a manufacturer produced a combo for example that had its 10s stacked vertically i'm sure it would get a very mixed response regardless of its audio capabilities.
yes 2x10s are avaliable that you can stack vertically but then where do you put your amp as it will be (in general) too wide for the cabs.


oh and not 8x10's unless they are in a really really tall cab. (drivers stacked vertically which doesn't exist)

Edited June 16, 2008 by lowhand_mike

[Bill Fitzmaurice]

[quote name='lowhand_mike' post='219952' date='Jun 16 2008, 10:57 AM']think bill means that as the "norm" for bass amps and indeed guitar amps was started back in the day as horizontal 2x10s and 4x10s when audio engineering was a little less refined it has been carried through,.[/quote]
+1. The engineering used by the vast majority of musical instrument cabs has not changed significantly since the mid 1970s, and it was 30 years obsolete even then. If either Leo Fender or Jim Marshall had possessed beyond a rudimentary knowledge of audio theory in general and loudspeaker design in particular the vast majority of musical instrument speaker topologies introduced since 1955 would never have appeared in the first place. Fender was a machinest who didn't even play guitar or bass, and Marshall was a drummer. Their method of speaker design was 'stick some drivers in a box'. Unfortunately they set a flawed standard that still dominates the marketplace today.

[Youngatheart]

Wow that started something off! But now I'm thinking b******s I wish I'd asked the question before ordering the 2x10 to go with my 1x15.
At present I have a GK 1x15 neo cab, so what would have been my best bet as the additional cab?
What I did go for was the GK 2x10 Goldline cab.

[bass_ferret]

[quote name='chris_b' post='219920' date='Jun 16 2008, 03:14 PM']Good man. You have illustrated my point exactly! Ferret wasn't giving any advice just propagating an "urban myth"![/quote]
So I was propogating an urban myth passing on the advice of audio engineers. Nice one. And I suppose I imagined the sh*t sound coming from my mismatched cabs as well. I am surprised Alex Claber has not chipped in as well but then again maybe he cant be arsed after having been called patronising [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=21354&st=20&start=20"]here[/url].