Youngatheart Posted June 17, 2008 Author Share Posted June 17, 2008 Well my original question has certainly sparked a debate! Now here's another one. I have an Ashdown EVO II head with a speakon and jack speaker connectors and I have the GK Neo cab which also has a speakon and 1/4" jack. I ordered, and today received, a GK Goldline 2x10 from Soundslive in Newcastle. Prior to ordering I asked if they could confirm what connectors the cab had as their website gave no details. To cut a long story short despite twice promising to get back to me they never confirmed the connectors and low and behold the cab arrived today and all it has is a single 1/4 jack! What are my connection options? can I come out of both connectors on the amp? Don't worry I'll be onto Soundslive tomorrow but just considering my options. Thanks for all the input so far your help and advice is much appreciated. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 [quote name='Youngatheart' post='220906' date='Jun 17 2008, 08:11 PM']Well my original question has certainly sparked a debate! Now here's another one. I have an Ashdown EVO II head with a speakon and jack speaker connectors and I have the GK Neo cab which also has a speakon and 1/4" jack. I ordered, and today received, a GK Goldline 2x10 from Soundslive in Newcastle. Prior to ordering I asked if they could confirm what connectors the cab had as their website gave no details. To cut a long story short despite twice promising to get back to me they never confirmed the connectors and low and behold the cab arrived today and all it has is a single 1/4 jack! What are my connection options? [b]can I come out of both connectors on the amp?[/b] Don't worry I'll be onto Soundslive tomorrow but just considering my options. Thanks for all the input so far your help and advice is much appreciated.[/quote] The short answer is YES! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Youngatheart Posted June 17, 2008 Author Share Posted June 17, 2008 Thanks, short and to the point and much appreciated Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 17, 2008 Share Posted June 17, 2008 [quote name='stevie' post='220827' date='Jun 17 2008, 06:42 PM']By 'placing drivers horizontally', I assume you mean like this:[attachment=9729:SCM200ASL_Pro.JPG][/quote] Nice try but no cigar! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JonnyM Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Can't resist posting these pics... [attachment=9739:1974_07_21.jpg] [attachment=9740:grateful..._sound_1.jpg] The backline IS the PA (the bass "rig" is the tallest stacks the right and left of the drums: 2 vertical stacks of 15's, 18 per stack... (I have an LMII and 2x10 Traveller and when I need to, I'll get another identical 2x10 to stack vertically... ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Fitzmaurice Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='JonnyM' post='221059' date='Jun 17 2008, 08:16 PM']Can't resist posting these pics... [attachment=9739:1974_07_21.jpg] [attachment=9740:grateful..._sound_1.jpg] The backline IS the PA (the bass "rig" is the tallest stacks the right and left of the drums: 2 vertical stacks of 15's, 18 per stack... (I have an LMII and 2x10 Traveller and when I need to, I'll get another identical 2x10 to stack vertically... )[/quote] The Dead were probably the most technically literate band of all time. They did their homework for sure. Their most ingenious invention was to use two mics side by side, wired reverse-polarity. They'd sing into only one, but any foldback was equally received by both, where the reverse polarilty cancelled out the signal, allowing outragous levels with no feedback. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 (edited) [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='221064' date='Jun 18 2008, 01:54 AM']Their most ingenious invention was to use two mics side by side, wired reverse-polarity. They'd sing into only one, but any foldback was equally received by both, where the reverse polarilty cancelled out the signal, allowing outragous levels with no feedback.[/quote] Brilliant! So when I see old footage of The Stones using two mics, that's why? I feel I should point out that neither Bill nor Alex nor anyone else is describing the fantastic amplifier circuits of classic Fender or Marshall amps as flawed, just the cabs. And if anyone thinks vintage Fender bass cabs or Marshall bass cabs are good, please show me someone (not Lemmy) who still uses them. The reason the Ampeg Fliptop and Ampeg SVT were the classic bass amps of the '50s, '60s and '70s is that they were actually designed for bass - and not merely a slightly adapted guitar amp. I also fail to see why the mind boggles at the idea that bass cabs should perform more like PA cabs than guitar cabs. Guitars sound good through unfaithful speakers with a huge amount of character. For some people, bass guitars sound good through an even cab, which reproduces the sound of the bass and the amp as faithfully as possible. For other people though, a large part of 'their sound' comes from their cab. For those people an even response cab won't be desirable. Good dispersion is always desirable. Edited June 18, 2008 by The Funk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilmour Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='stevie' post='220827' date='Jun 17 2008, 06:42 PM']You think a bass rig should be designed on the principles of a public address system? The mind boggles.[/quote] Why Not? As I pointed out in my post above 90% of the time what you are hearing at any big gig is the bass through the PA, not the sound of the Cabs (why else do you think Bass heads have a built in DI?), and I'm sure most people would agree that the bass always sounds better, clearer and more defined at bigger concerts than at smaller Pub shows where it is just the backline. In which case yes we should borrow some learning from PA system designs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gilmour Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='221064' date='Jun 18 2008, 01:54 AM']Their most ingenious invention was to use two mics side by side, wired reverse-polarity. They'd sing into only one, but any foldback was equally received by both, where the reverse polarilty cancelled out the signal, allowing outragous levels with no feedback.[/quote] I just thought they had two mics to make the singers twice as loud! now that I say that I feel like a fool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowhand_mike Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='gilmour' post='221112' date='Jun 18 2008, 09:04 AM']I just thought they had two mics to make the singers twice as loud! now that I say that I feel like a fool. [/quote] ha i just thought one was a backup. doh! bill i'm glad you mentioned about being able to have side by side configurations if you go one wavelenthg out of p[hase or what ever it was. i was wondering about that last night. as in why cant we actually still have speakers side by side but performing correctly. i assume its just cost, we can take existing cabs and turn them on their side. doing the wavelength thingy i guess would take more time and money to work out. could you explain it a little further cos my guitarist at practice on monday said something similar about setting a crossover to bring unmatched speakers back in phase, say a 15 with a 2x10. is that actually possible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chris_b Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 They generally used 2 mikes when being filmed. One was the FOH and one was the for the film sound. Ah the good old low tech days. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 The reason all those studio monitors were OK was because they were 3 way designs so the horizontal alignment would not cause problems because the cabs would have crossed over to the midrange drivers at the frequencies where comb filtering becomes a problem. Again in the example you quote with the 15 and 2x10 if you are using a crossover then the cabs wont be reproducing the same frequencies. The problem with most bass cabs is that being 2 way the big speakers are reproducing the low and mid frequencies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='chris_b' post='221183' date='Jun 18 2008, 10:17 AM']They generally used 2 mikes when being filmed. One was the FOH and one was the for the film sound. Ah the good old low tech days.[/quote] yes - look at the old film of Woodstock and the proper Isle of Wight festival. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='221188' date='Jun 18 2008, 10:20 AM']The reason all those studio monitors were OK was because they were 3 way designs so the horizontal alignment would not cause problems because the cabs would have crossed over to the midrange drivers at the frequencies where comb filtering becomes a problem.[/quote] Same with the Acme Low-B4 - the woofers crossover to the midrange @ 1kHz. The tweeter and mid are side-by-side because that's where they fit and Andy deemed it more useful to have them high up vertically aligned, but you can always turn the cab on its side if you're elevating it. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='Bill Fitzmaurice' post='220794' date='Jun 17 2008, 05:56 PM']Foremost, placing drivers horizontally.[/quote] Shouldn't that be placing drivers horizontally without crossing over to a midrange unit? Leo Fender and Jim Marshall didn't make sde-by-side bass cabs in the 1950s. Marshall bass cabs were 4 x 12, 1 x 15 and 1 x 18 and Fender had the Bassman, which was a 1 x 15. The side-by-side 2 x 12s these companies built were guitar amps. The Fender Twin and the Marshall Bluesbreaker (and the Vox AC30 before it) used open back cabinets based on a perfectly valid dipole design that still enjoys popularity today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='lowhand_mike' post='220785' date='Jun 17 2008, 05:39 PM']basically stevie take a look at this, it should explain everything. [url="http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=21267"]http://basschat.co.uk/index.php?showtopic=21267[/url][/quote] Oh dear me, it gets worse!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='stevie' post='221237' date='Jun 18 2008, 11:11 AM']Shouldn't that be placing drivers horizontally without crossing over to a midrange unit? Leo Fender and Jim Marshall didn't make sde-by-side bass cabs in the 1950s. Marshall bass cabs were 4 x 12, 1 x 15 and 1 x 18 and Fender had the Bassman, which was a 1 x 15. The side-by-side 2 x 12s these companies built were guitar amps. The Fender Twin and the Marshall Bluesbreaker (and the Vox AC30 before it) used open back cabinets based on a perfectly valid dipole design that still enjoys popularity today.[/quote] How many bass cabs do you see with midrange drivers? It's a very short list... A 4x12" is a side-by-side design. 2x12" guitar amps, whether open-backed or not, consistently work better if you turn them on their side - it gets the speakers closer to ear level and significantly improves off-axis response. If you can persuade your guitarist to do this it can do wonders for the sound of your band, I know my guitarist is a total convert. Personally I don't have a problem with people doing whatever they like to get the sound they want - but surprisingly often their decisions are based on faux science and witchcraft rather than the claim of just using their ears! If you are going to use science to aid your decisions, use good science! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
synaesthesia Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 (edited) [quote name='stevie' post='221237' date='Jun 18 2008, 11:11 AM']Leo Fender and Jim Marshall didn't make sde-by-side bass cabs in the 1950s. Marshall bass cabs were 4 x 12, 1 x 15 and 1 x 18 and Fender had the Bassman, which was a 1 x 15. The side-by-side 2 x 12s these companies built were guitar amps. The Fender Twin and the Marshall Bluesbreaker (and the Vox AC30 before it) used open back cabinets based on a perfectly valid dipole design that still enjoys popularity today.[/quote] Actually Fender started to make a 4X10 bassman as early as 1955. See Teagle and Sprung, Fender Amps, 1st 50 years. circa p 70 onwards. An electric guitar tone is not complete without the amplification system, and whatever historical deficiencies in design, such as limited bandwidth (typically 100 - 3.2Khz), speaker distortion, etc are part of what is desirable. Even the preferred 'clean' tone has this limited bandwidth, and the direct injected electric guitar tone reproduced in full audio bandwidth has never been desirable or even listenable. An electric bass has largely two different sonic goals given the history of how its tone has developed: 1. it behaves like an electric guitar and and the limited audio bandwidth and distortion characteristics are part of the 'tone' 2. the ultimate goal is to reproduce what the pickups send out as cleanly as possible, perhaps with some EQ. Full audio bandwidth capability is what is desired here. If you need your tone to be (1), stick with what is out there, albeit deficient in design. Your tonal bandwidth will be limited and won't disperse without problems. People do this all the time, and until they try to overcome these problems it is never going to be a problem for them. But then, I think Mr Zappa said some people like to vomit on their own clothes and it is not a problem for them either and it may be best to leave them be. If your tonal goal is (2), then your ultimate signal chain is the ultimate recording channel, and the ultimate audio reproduction chain is your ultimate public address system. And despite this the bandwidth of the electric bass spans typically from 30odd hz to about 6 or 7Khz. You really do not get much audio activity beyond that range, and most of the time you can drop off below 50hz, and drop off above 6 khz. Even Alembic pickups coupled with their on board preamps (famously bright) have capacitors to filter off oscillating frequencies above 6.5Khz. In either case, most stage musicians are weaned on guitar and bass having poor dispersion. If you have ever had a drummer ask a bassist to make his/her tone 'rounder' you will know that drummer has sat behind or sideways to a bass speaker system for too long. Stage audio deficiencies and intelligibility can be offset by close monitoring, either in ear, floor or pole mounted. But beyond the stage, dispersion and comb filtering become issues that you'd have to contend with, whether you like it or not. FYI, in the studio comb filtering can be an issue with the aforementioned products, but in the studio you mostly have an audience of 1 lab rat engineer who should be seated in the sweet spot, or a few others who come by to check out the mix or recording, and move into the sweet spot to listen. Comb filtering is a problem when you have a dispersed audience. You don't move around into different corners of the studio to check the mix, and you certainly don't position yourself away from the sweet spot area. Those speakers were certainly not designed for wide dispersion in a public area. Edited June 18, 2008 by synaesthesia Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowhand_mike Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='bass_ferret' post='221188' date='Jun 18 2008, 10:20 AM']The reason all those studio monitors were OK was because they were 3 way designs so the horizontal alignment would not cause problems because the cabs would have crossed over to the midrange drivers at the frequencies where comb filtering becomes a problem. Again in the example you quote with the 15 and 2x10 if you are using a crossover then the cabs wont be reproducing the same frequencies. The problem with most bass cabs is that being 2 way the big speakers are reproducing the low and mid frequencies.[/quote] so essentially as the 3 speakers are working on the same frequencies but work differently to each other ( as in the 10's work differently to the 15) and a crossover wouldn't help the matter, regqrdless of wether it sounds ok it's technically not. unless of course you placed the 3 speakers in one cab (albeit a bloody big cab) you could use a cross over for the 15 to handle the real lows and the 10's to handle the low mids - mids.(?) [quote name='alexclaber' post='221271' date='Jun 18 2008, 11:48 AM']Personally I don't have a problem with people doing whatever they like to get the sound they want - but surprisingly often their decisions are based on faux science and witchcraft rather than the claim of just using their ears! If you are going to use science to aid your decisions, use good science! Alex[/quote] i stay away from witchcraft, i prefer voodoo. i like this i'm learning something Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bass_ferret Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='lowhand_mike' post='221303' date='Jun 18 2008, 12:24 PM']so essentially as the 3 speakers are working on the same frequencies but work differently to each other ( as in the 10's work differently to the 15) and a crossover wouldn't help the matter, regqrdless of wether it sounds ok it's technically not. unless of course you placed the 3 speakers in one cab (albeit a bloody big cab) you could use a cross over for the 15 to handle the real lows and the 10's to handle the low mids - mids.(?)[/quote] Yes. If you just use a 15 and a 2x10 they will both reproduce the same signal but to differing abilities. The frequency response of each cab will be different but more important the phase (which changes with frequency) response will be different so at some frequencies the cabs will be in phase and reinforcing the signal but at other frequncies will be out of phase creating a cut in the signal. On stage you wont hear this because you will mostly be hearing the top cab nearest your ears unless its a very large stage. You could put a cross over into the cabs. A low pass filter on the 15 and a high pass filter on the 10's. Or you could build a crossover into one of the cabs with an output to the other cab - think about how sub/satellite surround sound systems work. Peavy used to do some cracking 3 way cabs, there was a 1516 cab with a 15 and 2x8 and the 1820 that had an 18 and 2x10. EBS used to do a 3 way bass cab but I dont think they do it anymore so like Alex says 3 way bass cabs are a rare breed, partly because bass players are too ignorant to realise the benefits as some of the posts in this and other threads has shown. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stevie Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='alexclaber' post='221271' date='Jun 18 2008, 11:48 AM']How many bass cabs do you see with midrange drivers? It's a very short list... A 4x12" is a side-by-side design. 2x12" guitar amps, whether open-backed or not, consistently work better if you turn them on their side - it gets the speakers closer to ear level and significantly improves off-axis response. If you can persuade your guitarist to do this it can do wonders for the sound of your band, I know my guitarist is a total convert. Personally I don't have a problem with people doing whatever they like to get the sound they want - but surprisingly often their decisions are based on faux science and witchcraft rather than the claim of just using their ears! If you are going to use science to aid your decisions, use good science! Alex[/quote] Indeed it is a short list - more's the pity. I certainly think a midrange driver is of more value than a tweeter for bass. I suppose a 4 x 12" could be considered a side-by-side design. Limiting vertical dispersion to control unwanted reflections is common practice but a 4 x setup limits dispersion by lobing both vertically and horizontally. So, to be fair, it's not strictly side-by-side. I'm not arguing against positioning a 2 x 12 or a 2 x 10 vertically, by the way. On the contrary, your experience is perfectly valid and there are sound technical reasons why it should be so. What I don't agree with is the blanket statement that the only, or best, way of arranging the speakers in a bass rig is in a column. But there has already been some backtracking on that assertion. Use good science, of course. The problem is knowing what is good and what is bogus. Or perhaps more aptly, what is important and what isn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Something I've noticed from modelling drivers in WinISD Pro is that the phase difference between models is rarely so huge as to cause cancellation if the cab tuning frequency is the same. Here is an SPL phase plot for a ported home cinema subwoofer: The point at where the phase flips from positive to negative is the port tuning frequency. In a typical bass cab expect this to be shifted up to 40-55Hz. If two speakers are 180deg out of phase you'll get full cancellation. If they are 0deg, 360deg, etc out of phase you'll get full reinforcement. Anywhere in between and you get anything between some reinforcement and some cancellation. The thing about adding a lowpass or highpass filter to one of your cabs is that you're likely to run into more problems with phase response as the filter won't work as predicted by the resistance model due to the impedance varying hugely in the low frequencies. I would recommend adding a highpass filter to a cab that keeps farting out but I'd be wary of doing any more than that. If you want to crossover cabs at low frequencies you're better off going with an active crossover and a dual channel amp. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Funk Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='stevie' post='221376' date='Jun 18 2008, 01:47 PM']I certainly think a midrange driver is of more value than a tweeter for bass.[/quote] Agreed. [quote name='stevie' post='221376' date='Jun 18 2008, 01:47 PM']I'm not arguing against positioning a 2 x 12 or a 2 x 10 vertically, by the way. On the contrary, your experience is perfectly valid and there are sound technical reasons why it should be so. What I don't agree with is the blanket statement that the only, or best, way of arranging the speakers in a bass rig is in a column. But there has already been some backtracking on that assertion.[/quote] I don't see any backtracking. What would be cool is two columns of 2x10s cross-firing. Ooh yeah! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lowhand_mike Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='The Funk' post='221383' date='Jun 18 2008, 02:06 PM']Agreed. I don't see any backtracking. What would be cool is two columns of 2x10s cross-firing. Ooh yeah![/quote] i seem to remember a long while ago seeing this in a thread, think it was about speaker position rather than stacking, especially in relation to walls etc which can also cause a single combo to cancel itself out, but then thats another post in itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='stevie' post='221376' date='Jun 18 2008, 01:47 PM']Indeed it is a short list - more's the pity. I certainly think a midrange driver is of more value than a tweeter for bass.[/quote] I agree, that's why my new cabs use a midrange speaker rather than a tweeter. I'm leaving the tweeter as an extra cost option because some people just can't live without that tone but I think they're relatively few and far between. It has been really hard to design a good crossover and the parts cost is far in excess of that of a typical tweeter, which explains why they're quite rare. [quote name='stevie' post='221376' date='Jun 18 2008, 01:47 PM']Use good science, of course. The problem is knowing what is good and what is bogus. Or perhaps more aptly, what is important and what isn't.[/quote] IME the bogus information is usually heard within close proximity of any guitar shop! Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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