Experimenting with a Shine Six-er

[Annoying Twit]

I've got a Shine six-string, which cost me £60. I bought it - just because really. Playing it now, there are some things I don't like about it. I'm considering using this bass as a guinea pig for experimenting with minor mods.

The first issue is high action. I don't think I'm going to be able to solve it by adjusting the bridge and/or truss rods (the neck looks pretty straight right now, but I'm going to have to google to work out how to measure that).

As well as it taking quite some force to fret notes with the high action, there's also an annoying 'clank' when I fret a note. I haven't noticed much in the way of rattles once I play a note. The strings seem to have quite a lot of tension in them, particularly the high C which seems really taught.

It seems that experimenting with shimming the neck is a good place to start, as in this sticky thread. [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/49897-how-to-shim-a-neck/page__st__60"]http://basschat.co.u...ck/page__st__60[/url] However, that's for basses with a Fender style bolt-on connection. The Shine has what I think of as a more modern bolt on joint.



Is it going to be more difficulty to shim this neck joint, or is it going to be simply a matter of cutting a business card to a different size. Looking at the front, there's quite a bit of neck there past the joint.



There are other things I might look at, but improving the action is probably the first step. As if it doesn't play all that well, there's not much point in making it sound or look better.

Any advice would be very much appreciated.

Edit: Perhaps there is too much neck relief. With a capo on the first fret, and fretting the 24th fret on the high C string, I can easily fit a 0.024" feeler gauge under the eighth fret.

Edited September 8, 2013 by Annoying Twit

[uncle psychosis]

My mate has one of these. Annoyingly he's left handed so I haven't been able to have a proper play of it. It certainly sounds alright.

[Annoying Twit]

I can imagine many people liking the sound because otherwise there wouldn't be many basses made that sound like this. But it's not my preferred sound. Too bridge-humbucker-y for me. I bought this one because it was cheap and I wanted to see what a six string is like. But if I'd been really after one, I think I would have gone for the version with two jazz pickups. I haven't experimented with applying some EQ and compression to see if I can get the sound more like I want it. The active EQ certainly seems powerful (I don't have much experience with active basses), though I'm not sure why I would need most of the range of sounds from the EQ. There's a big range of sound, but I can't ever imagine ever wanting to have the bass EQ set to cut. Maybe as a special effect or as a layer when using a looper (if I had one).

Edited September 8, 2013 by Annoying Twit

[MoonBassAlpha]

The action may feel high if the nut is cut a bit high. If the humbuckers have 4 wire connection (one pair for each coil) you could disconnect one coil for that jazz Pickup sound.

[nugget]

[quote name='MoonBassAlpha' timestamp='1378664991' post='2202977']
The action may feel high if the nut is cut a bit high. If the humbuckers have 4 wire connection (one pair for each coil) you could disconnect one coil for that jazz Pickup sound.
[/quote]


+1 If fits hard to fret it's most possibly nut is too high rather than the bridge, but probably both.

[Annoying Twit]

How do I measure if the nut is too high? On a six-string non-bass guitar, I fret at the fourth fret and measure clearance with a feeler gauge. If I fret at the fourth fret on this Shine bass, I can see a fair gap between the strings and the first fret. Particularly the B string. I haven't yet filed a nut, but am interested in giving it a go. I was going to try filing the nut on my Yamaha Pacifica guitar, as some of the strings are noticeably high, and if I completely <something> it up, I can easily buy a pre-cut replacement nut which will likely get me back where I started. How difficult would it be to find a pre-cut nut for a six string bass? Would something like this Just-a-nut be likely to fit? [url="http://www.banzaimusic.com/Warwick-Nut-30246-TRH.html"]http://www.banzaimus...-30246-TRH.html[/url]

Also, is it really imperative to buy really quality nut filing tools from Stewmac or similar, or will the cheaper ones which are re-purposed tools be reasonable. I see conflicting opinions on this. Buying nut filing tools from Stewmac will cost me much more than this whole bass cost.

If my pickups have coil taps, I'd be interested in seeing whether I could add one or two coil tap switches. I don't remember seeing any extra wires when I've opened the control cavity. But of course they may not be fed through to the CC from the pickups even if they are there.

Edit: This cheap plastic nut might be my 'get out of jail free' card. [url="http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/6-string-bass-black-top-nut-54x9x6mm-/180954200697?pt=UK_Guitar_Accessories&hash=item2a21b5fa79"]http://www.ebay.co.u...=item2a21b5fa79[/url] The measurements are about 1mm narrower. The existing nut is about 45mm between the centre of the top string to the centre of the bottom string. The nut on ebay is 44mm. Would that make a significant difference?

Looking closely at the nut on the Shine, it seems that all of the strings are a bit high (I presume - how much clearance should there be?), except for one. So, filing the bottom of the nut to lower all the strings may give me buzz city on the D string. Though, that could be shimmed with superglue I suppose, if I could re-file it.

The nut itself doesn't look well placed, it looks a bit wonky. It comes away from the fretboard a touch at the B string end. From other things I've seen, I think a previous owner tried to do things to this bass, and sold it off when they mucked it up. (I had to fix a number of strange setup things when I received it).

Edit: Apologies for the stream of conciousness post. But, I just tried the action on the D string, which is the one that is lower at the nut. It feels much better than the other strings, and it isn't set lower at the bridge.

Edited September 9, 2013 by Annoying Twit

[Myke]

The way my bass was set up was it had a business card under the strings at the first fret and then if it was really easy to get in then the nut was too high and then filed it until there was only a slight pressure needed to get the string to touch the card. But the card must still slide in pretty easy

Hope that makes sense.

For the record: I didn't actually do it but my bass teacher did it for me while explaining how to do it

[Annoying Twit]

I noticed that not all of the bridge adjustments were as low as they could go. I lowered them, and oiled the fretboard and polished the frets a bit while I was at it. The result is that it plays a lot better, but I wouldn't describe it as good yet. Certainly none of the strings are too low, and I would take the action lower if the bridge would allow it. Some nut files are ebaying their way to me at the moment. But, having removed the strings when oiling the fretboard, I wonder if the very crude looking nut shouldn't be replaced.

It's been in the cupboard a long while, and having played it a bit more, I've got a bit more used to it, which along with the better action results in a more pleasurable playing experience. Hopefully if I can do something with the nut, it'll improve again. I've found that plucking the strings around the 18th (out of 24) fret gives a sound I much prefer to the sound when plucked above the pickups - that's also more a comfortable position when seated.

Apologies to the bass technical wizards for the very primitive thought processes going on in my head

Edited September 10, 2013 by Annoying Twit

[chrismuzz]

I had one of these. with a neck shim it became one of the most comfortable basses I've ever played! I took it to a luthier who only charged me £30 for the job but its fairly simple to do yourself

[Annoying Twit]

I still plan to shim the neck, depending on what happens or doesn't happen when I do something to the nut.

Edit: One potential future mod is to change the bridge. I'm not sure that this is necessary, so advice would be greatly appreciated. Item wanted thread here: [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/216776-quality-gold-six-string-bass-bridge/"]http://basschat.co.u...ng-bass-bridge/[/url]

Edit: I said before that I didn't really like the sound. I usually play with my fingers, but I've found that using some of the more interesting presets on my zoom b2 and playing with a pick results in some very interesting sounds.

Edited September 11, 2013 by Annoying Twit

[MoonBassAlpha]

If you fret at the first fret and see the gap above the 2nd fret, cut the nut to about the same above the first fret. That should be a good starting point. I think most nuts are cut conservatively too high. As you said, if you go a tad too low you can drop a bit of superglue in and start again.

[Annoying Twit]

If I do that, the nut is considerably high on every string.

I've received my el-cheapo nut file substitute through the post, but it's clearly for a non-bass six string. I'll do the top two strings and see what happens.

Edit: I've done the top three strings; D, G, and C. Using the courage given to me by finding that a local seller sells six string bass nuts for £1.29 + 0.75 p&p, I sawed away at the nut quite a bit using a visual estimate of 30 degrees. The result is that those strings have a slightly lower action overall. But the improvement in how they feel to play is out of proportion. The top three strings seem to play much better than they did. Also, the strings now 'look right' sitting in the nut, when before they looked a bit to be sitting on top of it. I can't find any unusual buzzes or other sounds when I play those strings open. The bottom three strings are of course much larger string than the top three, so this isn't a fair comparison. But the top three strings feel nicer to fret than they did before, while the bottom three have a definite 'clunky' feel.

According to your estimate, the strings are still a bit high at the first fret. But, better than they used to be.

I think it's still worthwhile trying a very thin shim on the neck to bring the action down a little. Also the strings do feel quite taught, and perhaps they aren't the best set for me for this bass.

Overall, so far, things appear to be moving in the right direction

Edited September 12, 2013 by Annoying Twit

[geoffbyrne]

I bought a set of needle files to use on the bigger slots.

The way I do the slots is to hold down the string at the 3rd fret & the string should *only just* clear the 2nd fret. If you tap it hard between the nut & the 3rd fret you should only just hear a click. You should just be able to slide a cigarette paper between the fret & the string - I'd say a business card is far too thick.

G.

Edited September 17, 2013 by geoffbyrne

[Annoying Twit]

Thanks. I'll look into that if I don't find that I can use a Webster adjustable brass nut. I'm very tempted by the concept of an adjustable nut. My Rockbass has a simpler adjustable nut, but has only two adjustment screws to angle the nut. However, adjustable nuts appear to be a controversial topic.

[Annoying Twit]

I'm back here after [url="http://basschat.co.uk/topic/217265-how-would-a-nut-like-this-work/"]this thread[/url] where I was looking into using an adjustable nut. Today I found that Aldi are selling a needle file kit, and bought it. After the first round of filing, I'd done the top three strings and they felt much better than the lower three. Tonight I hacked away at the slots for the lower three strings, and they all feel much improved. I really had to grind away at the slot for the B string. I even had to break out one of the larger half-round files to get the string to sit in the slot.

The bass feels considerably improved. Now the strings feel natural. Before they felt 'cheap bass' (well, it is!) and clunky. It's not a great feeling bass. (yet?), but even my semi-random sawing at the nut has improved it considerably.

In hindsight, I'm very surprised how much difference filing the nut made. Though, that may be a comment on how well it was filed by the manufacturer.

The action isn't low, but it isn't too bad now. Next step will be to look more at the neck relief. I gave both truss rods a minor try, and both moved with what seems to me to be a reasonable firm feeling. It's rather scary to be looking at adjusting two truss rods, but if I fret a string at the 1st and 24th fret, there's a bit more than a credit card gap at the eighth fret.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Annoying Twit

[Mr. Foxen]

How flat you can get the neck sort of depends on how level the frets are. Perfect frets mean thick paper sized gap, chances are you don't have perfect frets.

[Annoying Twit]

I'm working up to things, but it'll be a fair time before I'm levelling frets. When I played the bass after filing the nut, it felt a lot better. But now that I've left it a bit, it doesn't feel that good to play. Relief is probably the next thing to try. But I'm very tempted to buy a few cheap nuts, and do the filing a number of times over. Not sure if I'll shim the neck.

I'd need to be happy with adjusting the truss rod in order to level or dress frets, as I'd need to straighten the neck to dress the frets, and then adjust relief again. Wouldn't I?

Edited September 19, 2013 by Annoying Twit

[Annoying Twit]

I just shimmed the neck. I was a bit worried when I found that I have five screws, three of which are longer than the rest, but I figured out that the ones under the fingerboard have further to go through the wood, even before they hit the fingerboard.

Looking at the neck pocket, not that I'm an expert, but it looks like the body is made from a nice hunk of ash to me. A pity it's covered up by all that thick red finish, but I don't want to do anything like a refinish at the moment. The neck pocket is almost exactly business card width, so all I had to do was round the corners of the business card, and cut it so that it sat in the pocket but didn't obscure the two most bodyward screw holes.

On putting the neck back on, I wasn't sure how much torque to put on the screws. I tightened them to the point where they were quite firm, but I didn't have to really use a lot of hand power to tighten them.

This has certainly lowered the action. It's now reasonably low. It's a touch buzzy and clanky, but not too bad at all. I think it's sufficiently within the ballpark that I'd be able to play cleanly with better technique. However, the action is quite low now, and I can easily raise it at the bridge as the saddles are currently all as low as they can go. I presume I'll need to set the intonation again.

BTW: I must find out what mode my camera's in that makes it refuse to focus.



Edit: Damn! I just realised. I took all the strings off and I forgot to oil the fretboard!!!

Edit: I've played it a fair amount, which will be in lieu of proper bass practice today. The A and D strings were buzzing like a hornet on the 13th and 15th frets, pretty much only. I raised those strings at the bridge, and the buzzing reduced dramatically, but I guess this means I have a high fret somewhere.

Edited September 19, 2013 by Annoying Twit

[Annoying Twit]

Just to keep this thread complete, this bass now has a matt finish on the neck courtesy of some slightly over-enthusiastic scouring with a scouring pad as in [url=http://basschat.co.uk/topic/217653-lightly-sanding-a-glosssy-neck/page__pid__2217142#entry2217142]this thread[/url].

[Annoying Twit]

I'm not sure if it's the best strategy to ask questions in this thread, or to create individual threads for different topics, then summarise in here.

I've tried adding a foam mute to the bass. It looks like this:



That's part of a kitchen sponge cut with scissors.

Overall, I think I prefer the sound with the mute. Without it, the bass sounds a bit metallic and 'piano-wire' like. With it, the sound is rounder, mellower. Though, perhaps slightly featureless. More a sound for bass 'in the mix', rather than as a featured instrument maybe.

However, the low B string isn't muted very much. But, the top C string is really muted. Is this because my piece of foam is a bit short and only just covers the strings? Or, is this an inherent problem. I prefer the muted sounds, but being only able to play very muted notes on the top C while the other strings play much more normally and even sustain, is a bit inconsistent. Any hints for how to address this?

Edited September 22, 2013 by Annoying Twit

[geoffbyrne]

The Low B is so much heavier, it carries a lot more energy than the top G, so it takes the mute longer to suppress it.

Check your intonation with the mute, by the way, as sometimes a solid-ish mute can change the scale length (effectively).

G.

Edited September 24, 2013 by geoffbyrne

[Annoying Twit]

Thanks. But, despite preferring the foam mute the first time I tried it, on subsequent tries, I think the inconsistency of the strings is too much of a compromise for the minor tone improvement. So, I've switched back to not using the mute. The whole point of what I'm doing is to try things, so at least I've now got a better idea of what a foam mute achieves.

I've been playing the Shine more now that it plays better. I'm starting to address the degree to which other strings ring in sympathy, which can create a wall of mud obscuring what is being played. But I need to get a LOT of hand (both hands) onto the strings to do this.

I've just had a quick play of my Rockbass (Streamer STD) that I keep at work. This also was experimented on, but in a different way. I sent it off to a technician to have it professionally set up. It certainly came back different. Comparing it to the Shine, I think the Shine now has the better setup and plays better. The Shine has lower action with less rattle and other unfortunate side affects. So, it looks as if what I have done is comparable to what I would have received if I'd paid for a professional setup.

I'm not sure what I should do to the Shine next. I'd prefer to practice shielding on something with a much less crowded electronics cavity than the active Shine. New pickups might be interesting, but they'd be expensive and I don't know for sure that they would subjectively (for me) improve the sound.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Annoying Twit

[geoffbyrne]

I suspect you'd get bigger bonus out of changing the pre-amp rather than the pickups.

G.

[Annoying Twit]

[quote name='geoffbyrne' timestamp='1380024353' post='2219635']
I suspect you'd get bigger bonus out of changing the pre-amp rather than the pickups.

G.
[/quote]

That's an interesting suggestion. I'm not yet entirely convinced as to my ears it sounds as if the EQ on the bass is very powerful. But with the EQ flat, I don't particularly find the basic sounds of the pickups inspiring. I'm still curious about seeing if it's possible to coil tap the pickups if they have wires for that. My Rockbass has a similar sound with its humbuckers, but my Cimar has pickups that sound excellent to me. Perhaps I'm a single coil bass pickup kinda guy. I've just quickly checked the sounds at the Lakland bass site, and the bass which is probably most similar to my Shine in terms of having humbuckers and pickup position is this one: [url="http://www.lakland.com/ac_4401.htm"]http://www.lakland.com/ac_4401.htm[/url] Despite that having Bartolini pickups and a pre-amp, I don't find that to be an inspiring sound, and prefer the sound of their Jazz basses.

However, I really like the humbucker sound on the Eastwood Classic 4. I presumed I was going to buy one until I got my Cimar which can have a similar sound (except not the fatness on the short scale classic 4's G string). [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmSUjhcJaPo[/media] It seems that for me, to like a humbucker sound, there has to be at least one humbucker right up at the neck. However, this is Ed Friedland playing, and he always seems to get great sounds. Other youtube videos showing off the same basses often sound much worse.

If I'm looking at top range pickups and preamps, Nordstrand, S2, or Bartonlini, that's a fair chunk of cash. I'd like to be careful that there's at least a fair chance that I'm doing the right thing before I start buying stuff.

Edit: These are expensive pickups, but this (at the beginning) is precisely the bass sound I don't want, and the Shine bass has a bit. [media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iNipYNbjfes[/media]

I'm personally wondering if I need to experiment putting the bass through a graphic EQ and compressor to see how much I can scuplt the sound I want that way, rather than just changing the bass.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Annoying Twit

[geoffbyrne]

What's the EQ settings on your amp?

G.