Out the factory neck shims: Are they common?

[MisterFingers]

I'd be interested in finding out whether this is still common. I'm guessing that with computer controlled routing neck pockets are damn tight these days, but has anyone discovered that their new bass has had shims added? Do you think that this affects your opinion of the instrument, or of the makers? I'm genuinely curious folks.

[stingrayPete1977]

Most stingrays have a plastic shim fitted as standard I think?

[fretmeister]

I like a mentally low action.

So often my set up involves putting a shim in to tilt the neck a little anyway. IMHO all necks should have some sort of neck tilt adjustment like on the Marcus Miller jazz basses.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='MisterFingers' timestamp='1378751594' post='2204257']
I'd be interested in finding out whether this is still common. I'm guessing that with computer controlled routing neck pockets are damn tight these days, but has anyone discovered that their new bass has had shims added? Do you think that this affects your opinion of the instrument, or of the makers? I'm genuinely curious folks.
[/quote]

Its about neck angle, rather than tightness, so its as necessary as ever. Can't rout an angled pocket very well, need a very fancy machine that can do tilting, no real point when a shim works.

[Prime_BASS]

I found that an old sterling I had had a shim but later models don't. And obviously fenders micro-tilt system is just a fancy shim.

[BigRedX]

Angled neck pockets aren't that difficult to do. Manufacturers of set neck instruments make them all the time. They just require the appropriate templates/jig.

Also the typical Fender-style BBT has almost 10mm of travel between its highest and lowest settings. IMO if you can't make a neck pocket within those tolerances then you have no business building musical instruments in the first place.

[BassBod]

A shim is for angle, usually nothing else. It brings the frets closer to the line of the strings, rather than an increasing distance as you go up the neck. Nothing wrong with and its probably essential for those that like a really low action. Wal's always seem to have them (veneer, stuck to the heel), as do old Fenders.

Think of it as fine tuning..early 1950's style.

[Marc S]

Interesting, I don't think I've ever come across a bass with a shim added,
but I had a go at putting one into a bass, way, way back
It was a really awful Kay (the catalogue people) with a really high action
The shim seemed to work, but I saw it as a cop-out for a terribly built guitar at the time

I got shot of it pretty quickly, and bought a rather better bass

[Ghost_Bass]

I like my basses set with a very low action (i'm a light player). From all the basses i had i only ever had to shim Precision or Jazz basses. My TRB is neck through so a shim is impossible but it has an insanely low action without fretbuzz, my Ken Smith is bolt on but doesn't need a shim and on the low budget side my Sandberg is a P copy but i can get that action very low without buzz and no shims in sight...

[Musicman20]

Never had to shim but no doubt most of my basses have a factory shim.

I don't have low action...more like medium I think. I like to be able to dig in hard and not cause any issues.

[BigRedX]

You only need a shim to set the appropriate action if there is insufficient vertical travel in the bridge.

[Ghost_Bass]

In my POV if a factory needs to shim its necks then they urgently need to rethink their design. A shim isn't part of a setup like a fret dress for example, a shim is a fix to a build flaw...

[gjones]

I owned a bass with an atrocious action for years until I decided to bite the bullet and put a shim in the neck pocket. It worked a treat! Can somebody tell me why Fender discontinued their miro-tilt system when it seems such a great idea?

Edited September 10, 2013 by gjones

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1378813226' post='2204867']
In my POV if a factory needs to shim its necks then they urgently need to rethink their design. A shim isn't part of a setup like a fret dress for example, a shim is a fix to a build flaw...
[/quote]

Fender basses: in need of a design rethink. Apparently.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1378812470' post='2204857']
You only need a shim to set the appropriate action if there is insufficient vertical travel in the bridge.
[/quote]
It has nothing to do with that at all, the truss rod doesn't act upon the neck near the heel end so the shim adjusts the angle of the finger board slightly. You could have a bass with loads of adjustment left at the bridge but when you set the action as low as you require at the upper register and with an almost flat neck (actually flat for some people) the general playing area is still too high an action, it has nothing to do with the bridge travel. You can have a neck pocket set too deep which has the opposite problem but requires the whole pocket packing out to raise the heel so the saddles are not bottomed out.

[BigRedX]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1378817249' post='2204980']
It has nothing to do with that at all, the truss rod doesn't act upon the neck near the heel end so the shim adjusts the angle of the finger board slightly. You could have a bass with loads of adjustment left at the bridge but when you set the action as low as you require at the upper register and with an almost flat neck (actually flat for some people) the general playing area is still too high an action, it has nothing to do with the bridge travel. You can have a neck pocket set too deep which has the opposite problem but requires the whole pocket packing out to raise the heel so the saddles are not bottomed out.
[/quote]

Unless you have massive amounts of relief in the neck, the shim doesn't do anything that you shouldn't be able to do already with the bridge height adjustment. That's simple trigonometry.

[stingrayPete1977]

It's not at all, you can't adjust the whole length of the neck. I'm certain I'm right on this one BRX.

[BigRedX]

All the shim does is change the angle of the neck in relation to the body. It will only affect the action if you've already run out of travel in the bridge adjustment. The flatter the neck (the less relief set by the truss rod) the more true this is.

[stingrayPete1977]

If you have the neck adjusted with no relief or back bow but the area from say the 15th fret to the end has a natural (slight) curve then adjusting the saddles down will not give you a low action all the way up, it's not great I know but I didn't invent it.

[Ghost_Bass]

Flat neck, obscene low action, moderate light play - this is me and i get no fret buzz even when slapping or digging the strings (it may be fair to point out that when i need to attack the strings with more force i move my right hand closer to the bridge).

I'm with BRX on this, tilting the neck with a shim doesn't make a straight(ish) neck's action different from the result you get by lowering the saddles.

If we needed to shim a neck set with a slight curve on the truss rod then we couldn't have neckthrough basses or they had to be made of graphite...

[Ghost_Bass]

[quote name='Mr. Foxen' timestamp='1378814774' post='2204902']
Fender basses: in need of a design rethink. Apparently.
[/quote]

Well... we all know that. It would be better to get a Sadowsky, Allevo, Sandberg, etc and not worry about build issues...

[stingrayPete1977]

I'm probably not explaining it very well, hopefully someone else can do a better job?
A big part of the set neck is to over come the problem, and it usually does.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='Ghost_Bass' timestamp='1378819982' post='2205052']
Well... we all know that. It would be better to get a Sadowsky, Allevo, Sandberg, etc and not worry about build issues...
[/quote]

[quote]Both [i]Sandberg basses[/i] I've owned came with factory installed maple [i]shims[/i].[/quote]

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f18/shimming-more-if-you-already-have-shim-factory-668740/

Shims are not signs of issues.

[Mr. Foxen]

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1378820487' post='2205065']
I'm probably not explaining it very well, hopefully someone else can do a better job?
A big part of the set neck is to over come the problem, and it usually does.
[/quote]

Problem with set necks is you can't shim them when the action is wrong.

[MisterFingers]

Interesting replies, for sure. I knew that back in the day many Fenders had shims added at the factory - but I thought that these days it was less common due to more accurate cutting and better wood seasoning and selection. I suppose you wouldn't know if your bass had a shim unless the neck was off, or you could see a gap at the neck pocket.
I thought shimming was done for a lower action when the bridge saddles were at their lowest, and truss rod adjustment couldn't pull the neck back any more - that's certainly the case with one of my basses. Whether it's a sign of a build flaw depends on how low you want the action and whether it's unfeasibly high before shimming. I can't help but feel that factory shims are a sign of a quick fix to a problem with the build, in order to move the bass along for sale, but that's just an impression. Could be dead wrong, of course.