Help! Bridge falling over

[alistair Sutcliffe]

Timmmbbbbeeeerrrrrrrrr!

I'm having problems with the bridge collapsing towards the neck. Not all the time but often enough to make me think i'm doing something wrong. I do keep a check on it after tuning to make sure it hasn't angled forward.

I play mostly slap with quite a light touch. Certainly i'm not plucking as hard as many people i see on youtube. I don't stand on it or throw it around or anything either. I have my string height set low (around 10mm on all four).

It's possible i'm knocking the bridge during transit and i'm looking into getting a hardcase to solve that, but can anyone see anything wrong with how i've got it set up? Any other suggestions would also be greatly appreciated.

[FLoydElgar]

If your bridge has been knocked over, you may want to check to see if the sound post is in the right position by a professional.
To save any unnecessary damage. As the pressure from 4 strings is pushing down onto the bass and all that is supporting it is a cylinder of around inch in diameter. I may have a case for sale its a Tom and will case with no wheels and the straps have been taken off and put in the back of the case. its a "used" case but still very useable

Pm if you're interested.

-F

[ubassman]

As a rule of thumb the angle of the strings coming into the bridge should be the same as that on the tailpiece side. The string angle at the back of the bridge has quite a steeper raking angle in comparison to the fingerboard side. It maybe that the feet are not correctly cut to stand the bridge in the right position but it also looks like your bridge may be knackered ...it seems to have quite some forward curl.

[alexpea]

It almost looks as if your bridge is on the wrong way round in the last pic... :s

[geoffbassist]

It's not possible to be certain just from the pictures, but it looks ok to me. Assuming the sound post is still in the correct place, you may want to consider the following:

When you next have the strings off rub a soft pencil into the grooves on the bridge and nut to help lubricate the string moving across these points. The bridge may be being pulled up towards the neck when you tune up so make sure that its properly upright when you next change strings. Remember only remove one string at a time when changing so the sound post doesn't fall.

If the bridge feet move a great trick is to add some rosin to the underside of the feet. This should help it grip the top.

I'm just a bassist though and as always I would suggest that if you are not sure then take it to a luthier, especially if you think the sound post is not correctly positioned.

Good luck getting it sorted.

[bassace]

Sounds good advice to me. I carry a 6B pencil with spare strings and a winder to gigs.

[alistair Sutcliffe]

Thanks for the advice everyone, your assistance is priceless

Fortunately the sound post is secure. I guess it's fitted too tight as it hasn't moved despite the bridge falling half a dozen times. That's something i'll get checked out as well as the bridge as soon as i can get it to a luthier, hopefully in a couple of weeks.
I'll go at it with a pencil and some rosin tomorrow and see how it responds to some hard playing.

Thanks for the offer of the hard case Floyd. I've had to rethink that as it probably won't fit in my car. I've had an idea involving a chunk of hollowed-out polystyrene and a bungee cord that might have to suffice. Oh the joys of being a slapper on a shoe-string!

[geoffbassist]

Cool. I would avoid doing the rosin underneath the bridge feet unless I had too as you may end up with the sound post dropping and its a bit of work. Perhaps start with the pencil in the bridge and nut slots and see how it stands up to some serious playing.

By the way it's a cool looking bass! Good luck getting it sorted.

[Rabbie]

You shouldn't need a hard case to avoid your bridge falling over unless you travel on a plane or you put it on the bottom of a tour bus. The bridge should not be as easy as all that to knock over. As Geoff says, it is hard to tell from the pictures, but like in most new budget instruments, your bridge may have been put in with a very bish-bash-bosh approach: the feet don't really seem to have been matched to the curvature of the top too carefully, which may contribute to its rolling and slipping. I see what alexpea says: in your 3rd picture it almost looks as if the bridge may have been put in the other way around. Ubassman is also right: maybe the bridge was not such a good one to begin with and it's a bit cream-crackered. Like Geoff, I play bass and I am most definitely not a luthier, but like you I do slap a lot in some of my bands and on some stages I am not gentle, yet the bridge stays in. So, stick to your idea and get it to a luthier as soon as you can. Hope you get it it fixed and slap-ready.

[keeponehandloose]

the underside of the bridge should be 90 degrees to the top of the bass, the photos look as though the bridge tapers to the top evenly from topside and underside.

[timbo1978]

I had a collapsing bridge about a year after buying my bass. The luthier said that the bridge was so thin it had curved through time and installed a new one. No problems since.

I don't think the new bridge was too expensive.

[PaulKing]

I think there some overly cautious / scary replies here. I don't think your bridge is knackered, although it migh t be a bit below par .... Ranking it alongside hundreds of other bridges being happily played up and down the country.

Sounds like your post is quite a tight fit, which is pretty common too. Not a problem for you, tho it might bother a concert bassist, and might just choke your sound a tiddly bit acoustically. But you are playing thru a pick up so don't worry about it. Plus, you don't need to worry about it falling when you fiddle with bridge and strings - just make sure your bass stays lying flat while you 'operate'.

Here's what might be contributing to your trouble:

Bridge feet maybe not finely fitted to begin with. Quite likely, if bought new from eBay or wherever. Solution - read up on fitting bridges, rub down the feet using a bit of fine sandpaper taped to the surface of the bass to get a good fit (it's a cheat, but works well enough for a bass like this - its how I do it). Hard thing is getting angle right, so bridge fits perfectly vertical. Alternative, send to luthier and get it done for £30, though they will probably advise a new bridge cos they'd rather see a good quality one on thee.

Bridge is not wrong way round - curve on top edge follows fingerboard.

Bridge taper (thickness) isn't ideally shaped at top - should be flat on underside, curving slightly on top surface, like what KOHL said. But that's not a biggie.

String notches may be 'catching' strings, so as you tune up the strings constantly pull the bridge upwards. Very likely, ESP with Silverslaps strings with that half-round wound surface. Solution - as described, one at a time slacken off the strings, pop out of notch, use fine round file to smooth out notches at entry and exit point - delicate touch here. Then scrape some soft pencil into the notch before replacing string. Best to slacken off all strings at the end, tighten to point they hold bridge in place firmly, then stand bass up. Now start to tune up, but regularly push down on the top edge of the bridge to make sure it stays at 90deg to surface of bass. You might even hear the rough surface of the strings 'clicking' over the notches a bit, but hopefully not if the notches are really smooth. Ideally the strings should glide thru the notches with no resistance.

Break angle over bridge too steep. Well, there's a lot written about this. It may exacerbate the problem here, but there's not much you can do about it, it's part of the basses anatomy. Expensive block extensions would reduce the angle (and apparently tension at same time), but I don't think this is really the issue here, looks pretty normal to me, within normal range.

Bridge may be flexing at the adjusters. Possible, though doesn't look like it in pics, and yours is adjusted right down, so shouldn't be a problem. but if they're poorly fitted, there may be too much play in the bridge, causing it to lean. Take out the bridge, see wherher the feet wobble noticeably. If so ... Get a new bridge.

Bridge may be warped. Possible, but again doesn't look much like it, not enough to be a problem. You can steam the bridge ( in a normal veg steamer) for 20 mins, then put a big flat book on it and as much weight as you can to press it flat, then leave to dry and cool overnight. But I don't think that'd achieve much here.

Overall, while there may be some imperfectns, minor quality issues, there's nothing I can see here that isn't pretty typical, and there are plenty of basses with FAR worse problems that play perfectly happily for years, so I'm sure yours can be sorted pretty easily.

Start by sorting the notches and keeping bridge at 90 as you tune.

Over and out

Edited September 12, 2013 by PaulKing

[ChrisF]

[quote name='PaulKing' timestamp='1378973091' post='2207108']
I think there some overly cautious / scary replies here. I don't think your bridge is knackered, although it migh t be a bit below par .... Ranking it alongside hundreds of other bridges being happily played up and down the country.

Sounds like your post is quite a tight fit, which is pretty common too. Not a problem for you, tho it might bother a concert bassist, and might just choke your sound a tiddly bit acoustically. But you are playing thru a pick up so don't worry about it. Plus, you don't need to worry about it falling when you fiddle with bridge and strings - just make sure your bass stays lying flat while you 'operate'.

Here's what might be contributing to your trouble:

Bridge feet maybe not finely fitted to begin with. Quite likely, if bought new from eBay or wherever. Solution - read up on fitting bridges, rub down the feet using a bit of fine sandpaper taped to the surface of the bass to get a good fit (it's a cheat, but works well enough for a bass like this - its how I do it). Hard thing is getting angle right, so bridge fits perfectly vertical. Alternative, send to luthier and get it done for £30, though they will probably advise a new bridge cos they'd rather see a good quality one on thee.

Bridge is not wrong way round - curve on top edge follows fingerboard.

Bridge taper (thickness) isn't ideally shaped at top - should be flat on underside, curving slightly on top surface, like what KOHL said. But that's not a biggie.

String notches may be 'catching' strings, so as you tune up the strings constantly pull the bridge upwards. Very likely, ESP with Silverslaps strings with that half-round wound surface. Solution - as described, one at a time slacken off the strings, pop out of notch, use fine round file to smooth out notches at entry and exit point - delicate touch here. Then scrape some soft pencil into the notch before replacing string. Best to slacken off all strings at the end, tighten to point they hold bridge in place firmly, then stand bass up. Now start to tune up, but regularly push down on the top edge of the bridge to make sure it stays at 90deg to surface of bass. You might even hear the rough surface of the strings 'clicking' over the notches a bit, but hopefully not if the notches are really smooth. Ideally the strings should glide thru the notches with no resistance.

Break angle over bridge too steep. Well, there's a lot written about this. It may exacerbate the problem here, but there's not much you can do about it, it's part of the basses anatomy. Expensive block extensions would reduce the angle (and apparently tension at same time), but I don't think this is really the issue here, looks pretty normal to me, within normal range.

Bridge may be flexing at the adjusters. Possible, though doesn't look like it in pics, and yours is adjusted right down, so shouldn't be a problem. but if they're poorly fitted, there may be too much play in the bridge, causing it to lean. Take out the bridge, see wherher the feet wobble noticeably. If so ... Get a new bridge.

Bridge may be warped. Possible, but again doesn't look much like it, not enough to be a problem. You can steam the bridge ( in a normal veg steamer) for 20 mins, then put a big flat book on it and as much weight as you can to press it flat, then leave to dry and cool overnight. But I don't think that'd achieve much here.

Overall, while there may be some imperfectns, minor quality issues, there's nothing I can see here that isn't pretty typical, and there are plenty of basses with FAR worse problems that play perfectly happily for years, so I'm sure yours can be sorted pretty easily.

Start by sorting the notches and keeping bridge at 90 as you tune.

Over and out
[/quote]

Quite possibly the most intelligent and concise reply Ive read to anything.....ever

[Rabbie]

Wow Paul, that's a great lot of advice and all at 8am. Pretty impressive sir.

[Happy Jack]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-zczJXSxnw"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-zczJXSxnw[/url]

[ubassman]

[quote name='PaulKing' timestamp='1378973091' post='2207108']
Bridge may be flexing at the adjusters. ..... if they're poorly fitted, there may be too much play in the bridge, causing it to lean. Take out the bridge, see wherher the feet wobble noticeably. If so ... Get a new bridge.

[/quote] That's what it looks like to me, at the back of the bridge you can see that there is a hinge or curl and the feet below the adjusters are not in line with the bridge above . It could be a trick of the photograph as Geoff rightly suggest and the bridge is a 3 dimensional thing but I would certainly check that out. In any event the bridge placement is not vertical on its back face relative to the top - have put a green line where vertical looks to be . To the OP, as a quick and easy guide, place a credit card or other square edge on the top behind the bridge and you will see the forward lean. Aim for 90 degrees between back edge of the bridge and top. The result of the forward lean ( whether due to the adjusters or the position, or badly fitting feet ...or a combination !! ) is that the string at the back of the bridge is simply wanting to push the bridge over at the top . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

Edited September 12, 2013 by ubassman

[alistair Sutcliffe]

Some great stuff been posted today. Thanks for the time you've spent.

I've filed and pencilled the slots this morning, i'm hoping that will get me through a half-hour set tonight with no problems.

I've had a good look and it's definitely leaning forward despite the feet being flat. It requires virtually no effort at all to make the bridge slip forward. At tuned tension I could push it over with one finger no problem.

One thing i've remembered is that the first time it fell was when i raised the adjusters a bit as an experiment. It fell over pretty much straight away so i lowered it again and it was fine for a while. Now it's doing it regularly. Maybe when i did that i set it up badly and i've caused it too bend.

I'll see how it goes tonight after that bit of filing but if it falls one more time then it's off to a luthier. I need to get some confidence in it back!

Thanks again to everyone

[keeponehandloose]

just noticed the adjusters, having recently only come across them myself I can definetly say what a bad idea they are from a design aspect .
I will be getting a solid bridge replacement asap.
It will certainly be a contributing factor to the original problem.
dont care what anybody says about how well theyre fitted makes all the difference, the design of them is fundamentally poor.

[alistair Sutcliffe]

[quote name='keeponehandloose' timestamp='1379010403' post='2207760']
just noticed the adjusters, having recently only come across them myself I can definetly say what a bad idea they are from a design aspect .
I will be getting a solid bridge replacement asap.
It will certainly be a contributing factor to the original problem.
dont care what anybody says about how well theyre fitted makes all the difference, the design of them is fundamentally poor.
[/quote]

They were good in that they allowed me to play around to find the string height i wanted. Now that i know that, the next bridge will be solid. It just seems like one less thing to go wrong!

[mtroun]

Since the majority of the world's best luthiers fit adjusters to their instruments, I wouldn't say they are a bad idea, but they are tricky to install correctly. As previously mentioned it does look like the bridge adjusters aren't fitted straight. There shouldn't be a problem with having adjusters on your instrument though if they are installed correctly.

[keeponehandloose]

[quote name='mtroun' timestamp='1379066912' post='2208251']
Since the majority of the world's best luthiers fit adjusters to their instruments, I wouldn't say they are a bad idea, but they are tricky to install correctly. As previously mentioned it does look like the bridge adjusters aren't fitted straight. There shouldn't be a problem with having adjusters on your instrument though if they are installed correctly.
[/quote]

[ubassman]

[quote name='alistair Sutcliffe' timestamp='1379008586' post='2207724']

I've had a good look and it's definitely leaning forward despite the feet being flat. It requires virtually no effort at all to make the bridge slip forward. At tuned tension I could push it over with one finger no problem.
[/quote]

When you look at the amount of string that is typically in contact with a bridge , it is usually only in the region of only 4 - 5 mm ( or so). If you think about the centre line of that tiny point of contact between bridge and string , there's only maybe 2.5 mm on the fingerboard side and 2.5 on the tailpiece. This centre line of the string should bear down over the centreline of the bridge. So, when the bridge leans forward, there's an asymmetry and most of the string that is in contact with the bridge is actually in contact on its rear face (rather than centred on top) which is why it becomes really easy to push over forwards.


[quote name='mtroun' timestamp='1379066912' post='2208251']
Since the majority of the world's best luthiers fit adjusters to their instruments, I wouldn't say they are a bad idea, but they are tricky to install correctly. As previously mentioned it does look like the bridge adjusters aren't fitted straight. There shouldn't be a problem with having adjusters on your instrument though if they are installed correctly.
[/quote]
+1 ....nothing wrong with adjusters if you prefer the flexibility as long as they have been drilled accurately and are installed correctly. A lot of people swear by them and have no difficulties. Hope you sort this soon and are back to playing without fear of collapsing bridges !

[alistair Sutcliffe]

Well it survived the mini gig last night. Have to be honest though, the cable tie holding the top of the bridge to the tailpiece doesn't look too clever

I rang a luthier this morning and got a ball-park figure of £70 to £100 to fit a new bridge. I'm not a fan of spending money if i don't have to but i think the work needed to save the existing bridge is beyond me.

[ubassman]

Out of interest , what did you end up doing Alistair?

[alistair Sutcliffe]

It went to a luthier in the end. I took it to Simon Watkin Violins near Whittlesea from the pinned list. He salvaged the bridge I had by reshaping the feet so it stood up at the correct angle. Like you said, the angles both side of the bridge are now equal. He also re-cut and moved the sound post for me. I played my first gig with it since the work was done just last night. It was a nice change not having to worry about it collapsing! The cost of the work was £30 and he did it while I waited. Can't ask for more than that!