Being the one who says "no" to gigs.

[Beer of the Bass]

This must be a common issue! In one of my bands, the member who does most of the gig bookings is not very good at saying no to gig offers. We've had a couple of gigs in the past where we've been left out of pocket, playing to oblivious audiences and wondering why we bothered. Currently I'm trying to explain to the band why I'm not keen on doing an out-of-town charity gig in between Christmas and New Year, where I'll have to rent a vehicle to shift our gear (I'm the only driver) and the promoter is offering "as little as possible" in payment. We do still get plenty of gigs which feel worth doing, but I feel like we could be more selective.
Any tips on getting my viewpoint across without seeming like a grumpy b@stard?

Edited September 13, 2013 by Beer of the Bass

[Telebass]

Be a grumpy bastard. And why are you the only driver? No wheels of your own = no place in a band, as far as I'm concerned.
If only as backup, everybody in the band should drive.

[JTUK]

Agree.... they are way too many cheap gigs that you should leave alone.
We have set a min fee to be paid at every gig and even if we did a gig for exes, the kitty pays
out to the min fee.

Every now and then a good gig will come by where you need to sit down and decide what you will get out of it...
but we never take a gig without everyone aqgreeing to it.
And once we have set a price, we don't haggle too far. If an 'event' thinks they can offer £450 then you will probably not like the way they
do things anyway.
Stages cost, P.A and lights cost, amenities cost... and the band/bands are the budget item..??
How does that work if the success of the event rests with the music..???

[Beer of the Bass]

I've declined this particular gig, but there's definitely a difference in attitude between the band members. I guess that my being a couple of years older and married affects things too. A couple of days after Christmas I intend to be relaxing with family and friends not running around sorting out van rentals and hanging around half empty hotel function rooms, though I would probably make an exception if it paid well. I'm not even solely focussed on the money side of things - there are some paying gigs I'd be happier not doing (certain pubs) and some expenses only gigs which I love doing (certain smaller festivals which I would have been at anyway).
I guess I just don't have that attitude that having a gig is always better than no gig, which I need to talk about with the band.

[flyfisher]

There are no rules. If you're not happy with something - for whatever reason - then there's no reason to commit to it.

Some people like nothing more than messing around with loads of equipment and will go to almost any lengths to be able to do so, even if that includes driving 100 miles to set up a full PA for no financial reward ( especially if it means they can get away from a family get-together around Christmas time ).

Other people won't get out of their chair unless there is some money in it for them.

No rights and wrongs, just different feelings.

[keeponehandloose]

if you are the sole driver then you call the shots as to where and when the band go, I think they need to see things from your perspective a bit more.

[EliasMooseblaster]

I think it happens to a lot of bands - when you're ready to start gigging, anything seems like a good offer because, if nothing else, it gives you a chance to test out the unit, see what people think, etc. After a while, you become more confident that the band is competent and liked, and you don't really need those gigs any more - that's when various band members start considering the cost:benefit ratio. Looks like you're just the first one to reach that stage. I'd hope that, as long as everyone's polite and upfront about it, it shouldn't do any lasting damage to put your foot down occasionally!

[Prime_BASS]

I'm the one who says no, all the time. Or atleast the most rational.

It's easy to explain why not to do a gig, especially if it is going to be pants, not a lot of solid reasons for doing any gig really.

Will people be there?
Will you get reimbursed for travel?

[borisbrain]

I guess it's down to what you and the others want to get from the band. I'd hazard a guess that for a good number of BCers, being in a band is a hobby rather than a profession. If it's a paid hobby, then so much the better. However it's still a hobby, so if a gig looks like too much of a ball-ache, then it ain't gonna be fun.

I also book the majority of gigs for my band, and I'm occasionally frustrated when other members decline a gig for seemingly inconsequential reasons. Having said that, we do about 45 gigs a year and the guys are entitled to some sort of private/family/social life. We won't play any gigs over Christmas or the New Year since we're so busy during the rest of the year, and it's only fair to members and families to have a festive week off.

For the same reason, we've also agreed amongst ourselves that we absolutely won't go out for less than a certain fee.

BB

[discreet]

Sometimes the only way to get your viewpoint across is to be a grumpy bastard. If I were the only driver in my band I'd be calling the shots, have no doubt about that!

Organise a meeting with the agenda 'Should we do gigs that leave us out of pocket?' and have a vote on it.*

*Anyone who can drive gets three votes.

Edited September 14, 2013 by discreet

[lurksalot]

If its a gig everyone wants to play and it STILL costs for van / PA etc then I guess the others will cough up their share of the costs ?

[TomDuff]

You are not being grumpy - just rational. Your band mates are fortunate they have someone who will drive them to and from gigs and should bare that in mind.

[Lord Sausage]

Miserable buggers. I've always just played for the love of it. Never thought about cost. I've wasted money on worse things than gigs

Edited September 14, 2013 by Lord Sausage

[Machines]

My band has done a few charity gigs recently, great for live practice but it's costing me money to get there. No more freebies I demanded.

A week later we have 4 paid gigs lined up.

[artist57]

My experience has been that you get treated, pretty much proportionate to how much you're paid. If you're paid j*** s*** that's sometimes how you'll be regarded. We do some charity stuff and are happy to. Like most of us, we do this because we love playing music but there's a point at which you might well think, wait a minute, we're turning up, enhancing somebody else's product, often enough to enable them to maximise their income, for nothing. Subjective, I know but there's a load more cost involved than just getting there with all your gear and playing for however long. I'm sure everybody knows all the stuff that goes on the list.

So, no, not grumpy at all, just realistic

Chris

[spongebob]

+1 on much of what has already been said.

Be rational - if they don't like it, so what!

One of my old bands booked a gig about 180 miles away. Fee was £150....between 5!

I did it the first time as it was in the diary when I joined, but they went and re-booked it for the same fee. I simply said that unless they re-negotiate, I wasn't willing to do the gig....it was a total dump in a bad area as well.

Upshot was they didn't do it. They could have done it without me for all I cared. Self-preservation comes first - a few years more years ago I may have gone along with it, but I learned it's best to stick to your principles....everyone else does when it suits them!

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1379172187' post='2209472']
Miserable buggers. I've always just played for the love of it. Never thought about cost. I've wasted money on worse things than gigs
[/quote]
I can see where you're coming from, but if we're going to play gigs for the love of it, we have to ask ourselves "will we love this gig?" rather than ranking all gig offers equally. There are some gigs which break even or make a small loss which can still be worth doing for a whole host of reasons. I had a good chat about this with the band today, and fortunately we seem to getting to a bit more of a consensus on what we're looking for in a gig.

[Lord Sausage]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1379175224' post='2209516']
I can see where you're coming from, but if we're going to play gigs for the love of it, we have to ask ourselves "will we love this gig?" rather than ranking all gig offers equally. There are some gigs which break even or make a small loss which can still be worth doing for a whole host of reasons. I had a good chat about this with the band today, and fortunately we seem to getting to a bit more of a consensus on what we're looking for in a gig.
[/quote]
I just play with the guys in the band. the only way it's not a good gig is if we play bad. i never really take into account anything about the gig other than if we played as well as we can and was it an improvement on last time.

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1379158315' post='2209233']
I think it happens to a lot of bands - when you're ready to start gigging, anything seems like a good offer because, if nothing else, it gives you a chance to test out the unit, see what people think, etc. After a while, you become more confident that the band is competent and liked, and you don't really need those gigs any more - that's when various band members start considering the cost:benefit ratio. Looks like you're just the first one to reach that stage. I'd hope that, as long as everyone's polite and upfront about it, it shouldn't do any lasting damage to put your foot down occasionally!
[/quote]
That's a good way to think about it. I've got about 5 years gigging experience over the rest of the band, and I went through that early stage you describe with another band entirely. So if I'm annoyed about it, it's because I'm going along for the ride with the rest of the band on the same trial and error process which I'd already been through myself.

Edited September 14, 2013 by Beer of the Bass

[discreet]

[quote name='Lord Sausage' timestamp='1379172187' post='2209472']
I've wasted money on worse things than gigs.
[/quote]

That particle accelerator, for one - five billion quid, seventeen miles of tunnels and y[size=4]ou haven't accelerated a [/size][i]single [/i][size=4]particle in it.[/size]

[maldy]

[quote name='EliasMooseblaster' timestamp='1379158315' post='2209233']
I think it happens to a lot of bands - when you're ready to start gigging, anything seems like a good offer because, if nothing else, it gives you a chance to test out the unit, see what people think, etc. After a while, you become more confident that the band is competent and liked, and you don't really need those gigs any more - that's when various band members start considering the cost:benefit ratio. Looks like you're just the first one to reach that stage. I'd hope that, as long as everyone's polite and upfront about it, it shouldn't do any lasting damage to put your foot down occasionally!
[/quote]

Totally agree with this and this happened to me in an old band. There was one member who would accept any gig. Sometimes ones that would pay us in beer. This was good for him because he didn't drive, but not so good for the rest of us. I talked to the rest of the band and we all agreed it was not on. Next time it happened I spoke up expecting the rest of the band to back me up. The buggers didn't and I looked like the spoil sport for turning down the gig!

[Beer of the Bass]

[quote name='maldy' timestamp='1379192352' post='2209763']
Totally agree with this and this happened to me in an old band. There was one member who would accept any gig. Sometimes ones that would pay us in beer. This was good for him because he didn't drive, but not so good for the rest of us. I talked to the rest of the band and we all agreed it was not on. Next time it happened I spoke up expecting the rest of the band to back me up. The buggers didn't and I looked like the spoil sport for turning down the gig!
[/quote]
Gawd, yes! We played at a beer festival last year, with lots of enticing ales and though it paid OK, they also gave us beer tokens. I was driving, inevitably. If only you could get doggy bags for beer...

[maldy]

[quote name='Beer of the Bass' timestamp='1379192713' post='2209766']

Gawd, yes! We played at a beer festival last year, with lots of enticing ales and though it paid OK, they also gave us beer tokens. I was driving, inevitably. If only you could get doggy bags for beer...
[/quote]

A barrel of beer to take home would be nice!

[Bassman Steve]

[quote name='artist57' timestamp='1379173384' post='2209496']
My experience has been that you get treated, pretty much proportionate to how much you're paid. If you're paid j*** s*** that's sometimes how you'll be regarded. We do some charity stuff and are happy to. Like most of us, we do this because we love playing music but there's a point at which you might well think, wait a minute, we're turning up, enhancing somebody else's product, often enough to enable them to maximise their income, for nothing. Subjective, I know but there's a load more cost involved than just getting there with all your gear and playing for however long. I'm sure everybody knows all the stuff that goes on the list.
[/quote]

Exactly this - you get paid what the promoter thinks you're worth. There will be times when such a gig is worth it as a punt (speculate to accumulate) and if everyone agrees then fine. Those times are rare.

[JTUK]

We travelled to the Cotswolds yesterday...took over 5 hrs driving which is something we just don't do, and we also stuffed up on the
fee... which will not gross £200 per head, but it will lead to others so it worked on that basis.
We will have to rethink the travel exes, but there is a case for loss leaders.

We do pay out a min fee on every gig though as we run a kitty which is fed by the good payers.
We limit charity requests but the kitty will kick in should they not pay exes,

Wse look very closely at charity requests and unless everyone is working free, then neither will we.
So that includes vendors, P.A, staging etc etc ...

AVOID at all cost those charity beer festivals..... I'm afraid.
It really is TOO much to put on a 10 band bill ALL FREE.

If we pay ticketed events, then we want to know how many tickets and the price they are selling before we set a price...

These are all agreed guide lines that work for us.... but as for the OP... you basically run the band, you should be getting paid extra for your van services.
They have no band without that. It seems your terms are very generous, and that is down to you, but I can't believe these guys think their behaviour
is not worth a debate.

Band meeting time, I think.