Is it really just as simple as transcribing records?

[SevenSeas]

Jazzers. (only please)

Dear bass chatters,
I wanted to open this topic to get lots of people different approaches to playing jazz!

Anyway more towards the topic thread, after having many different jazz tutors I have seen quite a few different teachers approaches to playing jazz. And still to this day I still find it baffling and frustrating at times. With so many methods and books to choose from, not to mention. The amount of scales, arpeggios, classical books to go through, theory books (Goldsby, Ray Brown, Rufus Reid, Mark Levine, Simandl, i've got them all). (the list is endless) even been through Ed Friedlands book on walking bass lines and looked through all the different approaches;

Chromatic
Dominant Approach,
Scalar Approach.

and i've written my own lines and analysed them but I still feel like my playing isn't improving well at least not in a jazz sense anyway

Surely i'm not the only one?

Anyway another tutor I saw and this has been the advice from different sites Jazzwise etc; Is just playing along with the classic records. (when I started playing electric bass, nearly 8 years ago now. Thats all I did, listen to records play along with them (and my scales and theory side of bass were pretty poor) and if I look back I would say I was making more of an improvement then.)

Anyway back to my original point;

I'm clearly not listening and intimating enough of the records but surely this would mean I'm only copying the greats, how do people ever manage to make their own great lines without imitating anyone else?

How does everyone else approach general improvement?

[Dad3353]

[quote name='AndrewRichards' timestamp='1379372687' post='2212010']...but surely this would mean I'm only copying the greats, how do people ever manage to make their own great lines without imitating anyone else?...[/quote]

Good evening, Andrew...

A good question, which comes up very often, so you are far from alone here.

The notion of listening and transcribing the 'greats' is not so much to copy their lines (although that, in itself, is not a bad thing...) but also to 'dissect' what they play,and try to assimilate the reason for playing such-and-such a line, riff, melody, what have you. Why did the maestro choose [i]that [/i]run over those chords..? How was tension created, and then resolved..? Over the same chord, later, what different approach was chosen..? Doing this for several 'standards', and several 'greats' (preferably on different instruments, even...) should enable (over time, and with perseverance...) to not merely imitate the 'master', but develop your own reasoning, based on theirs, but honed by your work. I doubt (I could be wrong..!) that you'll be playing the bass like Dizzy Gillespie played trumpet, so I don't think that 'copying' really applies. It's his (and all the others, of course...) way of thinking that you are looking for. Choose a player/genre/tune that inspires you, and dig into it. Listening, writing it out, playing runs or licks with the intention of understanding their construction; that's the way forward.
I would add my usual encouraging remark: it's the first 40 years that are the hardest, after which things get (slightly...) better.

Hope this helps; subject to completion, correction and/or contradiction from others, of course.

Edited September 16, 2013 by Dad3353

[Bilbo]

I think the transcribing thing is about absorbing the syntax of the language of Jazz. The characteristics of Jazz bass playing are easy enough to explain but, in practice, difficult to understand, Walking basslines are a simple example; follow the chords and play 4 notes to the bar. But that is a lifetime's work.

Author Stephen King writes for 4 hours a day.

He also READS for 4 hours a day. Listen to the greats, transcribe them and PLAY them (studying them is all well and good but hearing yourself playing the notes, the phrasing, the time feel etc is crucial to the absorbing of the concepts). As Dad says, don't just learn bass parts, learn melodies and solos from other instruments to take you out of the bass comfort zones.

The problem you have is that the learning is incremental. You don't 'learn' stuff today and incorprate it into your playing tomorrow. It takes months, if not years.

There is also a lot about playing Jazz that you can't pick up anywhere but on the bandstand and in the rehearsal room i.e. its not all learned in your bedroom. It is impoirtant to talk to and listen to other instrumentalists (my two greatest epiphanies as a bass player came about from conversations with a drummer and trumpet player respectively).

I have been playing Jazz for 25 years and, yes, I am still learning big time.
Playing your own lines is not something to get hung up about. You actually can't help but do it

[SevenSeas]

Great ideas, I've gone back to just transcribing and analysing the records. Hopefully will still keep up with the 'theory' side of my playing too.

You're right Bilbo in the fact that the sooner I'm a particular jazz band my playing should improve rather than learning a lot in my practice room.

[Hector]

You might be interested in reading this article: http://www.daveliebman.com/earticles2.php?DOC_INST=13

Transcribing is good, but you need to go about it in the right way. I think a really useful thing to do is to transcribe a single line you personally like the sound of. Learn to sing it first, matching as closely as possible the tuning (obviously) but also the articulation and time-feel. Once you can sing it along with the record, learn to play it on the bass. Once you can do it in the original key, learn to play it in all 12 keys. You might want to write down your lick, and analyse the notes within in order to transpose it to every key.

Next, go through a tune you play a lot and insert that phrase wherever you can. Start to alter the phrase a bit, change some pitches, or durations. You can even alter it to fit a different set of changes (e.g. play a major ii-V lick over a minor ii-V - you can either do this by altering some of the notes in the lick, or playing the unaltered line in the relative major over the minor changes). A good trick for altering the lick is to break it down into smaller segments, and only use one of the small segments before adding something of your own to it.

In this way, you learn some vocabulary that is properly internalised in your mind's ear, and can be applied in a variety of situations. By using it as a springboard, it ensures this vocabulary is generative, rather than just a mechanical lick you insert in a particular place. Because you're transcribing lines you like, and adding your own bits to them, your own voice develops as a matter of course.

[SevenSeas]

Great suggestions from all, nice one Hector, Bilbo and dad 3353.

[oggiesnr]

I've just started playing jazz (trad and gypsy swing). The advice I've been given is to listen to the right hand.

Steve

[FLoydElgar]

What are you wanting out of your practice?! Lets say better dexterity of left and right hand... Have an aim i.e harmonic major in all keys.... Do it from the lowest point if each key open E up to a d# on the g string jazz bass neck or the f# fret And think about how many ways you can get there I.e. 1 stri g. 2 string. 3 string 4 string you can even permutations of strings etc...

Think about what other scales you can run through like that 24th fret g string can give you a major blues scale in E...


I don't play bass anymore and probably am wrong but sort of stuff I was working on trying to incorporate scales with other scales not for improvisation but as a technical capability to have an idea of sounds and to experiment as much as possible and not care if it sounds like crap... You're in the practice room it's meant to be crap at first lol...
Also look at scales as a technique of understanding the bass

[Hector]

[quote name='FLoydElgar' timestamp='1379587358' post='2214417']
I don't play bass anymore
[/quote]

What.

[FLoydElgar]

Electric bass****. As I was referencing an eletric bass guitar! Electric bass is to much of a toy and boring to play to me...

[ubassman]

[quote name='FLoydElgar' timestamp='1379602626' post='2214716']
Electric bass is to much of a toy and boring to play to me...
[/quote]

Lol ...I guess a fair few people on BC might disagree with that sentiment - but I know where you are coming from - the DB has its own unique set of challenges !!

[mtroun]

Transcription is something I do more of these days than I used to, wish I'd done more earlier!
I go straight to paper for transcribing bass lines (I'm really looking for patterns and ways around the bass) but transcribing solos I do by ear, phrase by phrase. I know it's said that you should sing along until it's perfect then arrive at the instrument but I've not always found that approach beneficial as it's hard to hear a lot of the small intervals involved in typical bebop playing, particularly at speed. I use Transcribe! to slow things down and then sing each phrase as it comes, sometimes breaking it down note by note, and gradually put it on the bass.

This is probably the important point though: I've ceased to be in a hurry while practicing. You really need to will yourself to be patient and do the same thing day in day out if you really want to improve it. You have to be a harsh critic of yourself and try and make what you want to hear happen on the instrument. I always practice restrictively - focusing on one aspect of my playing at a time. Transcribing is important but not the only path towards being a good improvising musician. I'd recommend Hal Crook's 'How To Improvise' for the lowdown on restrictive practicing methods and a whole lifetime's worth of ideas for practice. Combine this with conventional technique studies and deep listening and you can't go far wrong probably.

[FLoydElgar]

I'm a double bass geek doe... lol

[Hector]

FLoyd man, don't scare me like that!

Edited September 20, 2013 by Hector

[Bilbo]

I know where Floyd is coming from. I am estranged from the electric. Not because of any innate flaw in the instrument, just because the gigs where I need to play it are my least favourite due to the nature of the music played.

[mtroun]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1379671405' post='2215459']
I know where Floyd is coming from. I am estranged from the electric. Not because of any innate flaw in the instrument, just because the gigs where I need to play it are my least favourite due to the nature of the music played.
[/quote]
Also, there's only so much time in the world. A part of me really wants to master playing the electric bass... but who knows when I'll feel like I have time, considering the many challenges of the double bass?!

I don't really think of the electric bass as a 'toy' though, it's more like driving a smaller, faster car.

[FLoydElgar]

http://youtu.be/5x-_EiW2BZs?t=38m28s