The ol' "active v passive" debate

[stingrayPete1977]

Every problem I have had with basses has been jack socket wiring related that would of rendered any bass unplayable until soldered again, active or passive.

[gjones]

I liked the John East pre amp in my Jazz because.....

No 1 - It allowed me hear, and to fine tune the bass sound, from out where the audience would be.

No 2 - It had a fancy mid control, which allowed you to pick a specific mid frequency to boost. Which made the bass much more audible in the band mix.

You can't do that with a passive bass.

[Funky Dunky]

Okay, I'm still learning here....

The physical act of changing batteries is not a hardship in my view. The expense of replacing battery every few weeks, if that were the regularity (and apparently it's not, so that's grand) is one I'd rather avoid, but buying in bulk would obviously be the route to go so again, problem solved. As for the instant death - sound to silence - a supposedly informed salesman said that this happens with some active basses. If this is false information, I believe I am well within my rights to slap him across the chops with a live trout.

Thanks for clearing things up, I'm grateful to everyone who has taken the time to share their opinions and experiences so far.

Cheers all :-)

[Dingus]

[quote name='Funky Dunky' timestamp='1379611949' post='2214866']
Okay, I'm still learning here....

The physical act of changing batteries is not a hardship in my view. The expense of replacing battery every few weeks, if that were the regularity (and apparently it's not, so that's grand) is one I'd rather avoid, but buying in bulk would obviously be the route to go so again, problem solved. As for the instant death - sound to silence - a supposedly informed salesman said that this happens with some active basses. If this is false information, I believe I am well within my rights to slap him across the chops with a live trout.

Thanks for clearing things up, I'm grateful to everyone who has taken the time to share their opinions and experiences so far.

Cheers all :-)
[/quote]

You can buy batteries cheaply over the internet , and most basses have low-drain circuits nowadays that gives hundreds of hours use from one change of batteries , but when you finish playing you must always remember to unplug the cable from the jack socket on the bass to disengage the battery .

Regarding actuive basses konking out if the battery dies , your salesman was right up to a point . Some active basses cut out completely and very abruptly when the battery no longer has sufficient power , whereas some others have circuits designed so that the bass will continue to work in passive mode if the battery dies on you . It just depends on which bass you choose , and if it is something you are worried about then it's worth doing some research and finding out if any active bass you are thinking about buying will work in passive mode in case of an emergency . I have an active bass and when the battery went dead unexpectedly and not only did it work as a passive bass , but it also sounded so good that I didn't get round to putting a new battery in for several weeks . A similar model from the same manufacturer will give no sound whatsoever with a dead battery . If you find a bass you like then look into what back-up features it has . More and more basses nowadays have a "reserve tank" in case the battery dies precisely for this very reason , although generally speaking it tends to be most common on more expensive models aimed at professional players .

Edited September 19, 2013 by Dingus

[LukeFRC]

I write on my batteries when I stuck them In.
I check them when I do a set up or something every few months.

If they are over a year and a half old then I just replace them - never had one die on me.

[Machines]

Had my G&L 2.5 years and it's still on the OEM battery. I so use it passive a lot though I suppose.

[Dingus]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1379621455' post='2215043']
I write on my batteries when I stuck them In.
I check them when I do a set up or something every few months.

If they are over a year and a half old then I just replace them - never had one die on me.
[/quote]

I think I once read Basschat's own Warwick Hunt tell us that he changes the battery in all his active basses every year on the 1st of January . It sticks in my mind because I was in awe of that level of organisation . I have usually got my head down a toilet on that day , and quite often it isn't even my own toilet .

[JTUK]

If batteries drain in 2 weeks and you don't leave it plugged in then something is wrong.
I had mine sorted by a gtr tech very easily and £20 and I change both basses when I remember, but typcally 6 months.
Plus they both has passive options anyway.

[such]

I've owned 5 active basses, each one for more than a year, one of them for almost 3 years. I've changed a battery twice between all those basses, and both times it was a precaution. So that's not an issue at all.

I don't have a preference, although at the moment I own two passive basses (well, one has a Sadowsky preamp built in, but it's totally bypassable and I normally play it in passive mode). I do appreciate to have the buffer so close to the pickups sometimes, as I often have 5.5m of cable between the bass and the pedalboard, 5.5m between the pedalboard and the amp and there still are the pedals (some of which I prefer to have buffered bypass too) and their patch cables.

All my active basses had great tone, all rather different to anything you could squeeze out of a passive bass. I wouldn't mind having any of them back.

[Norris]

The bass was/is an Aria Pro II SB-1000. It takes two 9v batteries. One of them always died first, as if it was connected all the time. I never left my bass plugged in, even unplugging it between spots. I ended up putting a bit of gaffa tape on the quick drain one for identification, as that was the one I had to change repeatedly. Perhaps there is a fault with it, but it's been there since I bought it second hand in about 1986 - so it wasn't that old when I bought it.

After about 8 years of swapping batteries every month, I kind of went off active basses. Maybe I just had/have a dud.

[ead]

I have and use both, but as basses are regularly plugged straight into an amp (or possibly a preamp with EQ controls), so isn't it just about where you do any tone shaping?

[Dingus]

[quote name='ead' timestamp='1379677503' post='2215579']
I have and use both, but as basses are regularly plugged straight into an amp (or possibly a preamp with EQ controls), so isn't it just about where you do any tone shaping?
[/quote]

Kind of , but not quite .

Depending on who you talk to and what you believe , active basses( generally speaking , as not all are equal) with the preamp engaged buffer the signal that comes from the bass , even without any EQ treaking , so even the flat sound of an active bass has a slightly different character to the unaffected sound of a passive bass . Allegedly . A lot depends on what bass with what preamp , but one fairly famous bass player who a lot of people associate with vintage equipment and passive Fender basses who I once met told me that he uses active basses exclusively in the studio precisely because he feels that ,even though he rarely uses the onboard EQ , the extra boost to the signal his active have gives a noticibly better recorded sound and one which is easier for the engineer to work with in the final mix , and this chap has done a lot of recording work and knows what he is talking about . From my own experience , I think a lot of active basses have a noticably "thicker" sound , even without any E.Q added from the preamp . If I pick up a Warwick Thumb Bass or Musicman Bongo then even with the EQ flat I think there is a percievable "cushion " in the sound that makes the bass feel like it has a bit more depth when you "dig in " . That is probably why an increasing number of manufacturers particulaly of high-end basses are featuring a true passive mode on their preamp , not just as a safety feature in case the battery dies but also as another tonal option that is supposed to offer a more organic sound than the flat active preamp .

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='ead' timestamp='1379677503' post='2215579']
I have and use both, but as basses are regularly plugged straight into an amp (or possibly a preamp with EQ controls), so isn't it just about where you do any tone shaping?
[/quote]
This my view, having it on the bass just makes mid song tweaks easier or handy if like me you play pick, fingers or slap from one song to the next, look at the setlist and I know without playing a note how much and which knob to tweak.

[Ou7shined]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1379678798' post='2215602']
Kind of , but not quite .

Depending on who you talk to and what you believe , active basses( generally speaking , as not all are equal) with the preamp engaged buffer the signal that comes from the bass , even without any EQ treaking , so even the flat sound of an active bass has a slightly different character to the unaffected sound of a passive bass . Allegedly ....
[/quote]

It's a fact. ... and in some cases (thinking of the mighty JE for eg) it's not so slight.

[JTUK]

Even if you use a range of styles, I don't think you need to be treaking too much on the bass if you have put your work in.

[dincz]

With the EQ controls centred, my bass sounds exactly the same when I switch between passive and active - provided I'm plugged into a high impedance input, which is typical of instrument amps generally. Going directly into a line input on a mixer, there is a noticeable drop in highs in passive mode, whereas the buffering effect of the onboard preamp means no drop when in active mode even when going into low impedance inputs.

A down side to this is the lack of any onboard tone controls (except the pickup blend) in passive mode, but then it's not a great hardship to use the amp's EQ which is 4 band with parametric mids and so much more versatile anyway.

All in all, I can't really see any disadvantage in having the active option. and there's still the advantage of buffering - good for long cables or low impedance inputs - as well as the more powerful tone shaping if required.

And replacing the battery a couple of times a year? I can live with that

[BigRedX]

I'm not a big fan of active circuitry in most basses because apart form the buffering effect (and IMO it's effectiveness is subjective depending on the sounds your prefer) most of them do nothing that you shouldn't already be able to do much better with the controls on your amp.

I've also discovered that a lot of active set ups tend to do one of two things. They either are massively boosting (or cutting) a selected frequency range in which case I would suggest that you have the wrong equipment for the sound that you are after, or the effects of the on-board EQ are being pretty much reversed by the settings elsewhere in the signal chain, in which case you need to set everything flat and start again from scratch.

The times when I do like what you can do with on-board electronics is when they do things that you wouldn't be able to do even if you had the right amp for your sound, such as being able to EQ each pickup separately or working in a different way to standard EQ controls like the filter circuit of Wal basses.


BTW What exactly are "active pickups" and how do they differ from a normal magnet and wire coil pickup attached by a very short lead to a pre-amp? I can't help but think that it's all marketing bullshit.

[LukeFRC]

A point to note - the "flat" setting on any active eq might not actually be the flat in terms of sound. Some onboard preamps are built this way (glockenklang for instance springs to mind) whereas others set flat will display characteristic bumps in your Eq curve.

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1379759919' post='2216474']
BTW What exactly are "active pickups" and how do they differ from a normal magnet and wire coil pickup attached by a very short lead to a pre-amp? I can't help but think that it's all marketing bullshit.
[/quote] Active pickups, EMG being the main proponent is where each pickup itself has a preamp and possibly tone shaping built into the pickup. This can then be fed through a pretty much standard passive volume and tone control (different value pots though) and into an amp, or into a onboard preamp.
Effectively you are right that they are normal magnet and wire coil with a tiny lead to their own preamp... but it's good to make the distinction so people understnad where it is their signal is being buffered.


EDIT: as can be seen here:

Edited September 21, 2013 by LukeFRC

[BigRedX]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1379761163' post='2216495']
Active pickups, EMG being the main proponent is where each pickup itself has a preamp and possibly tone shaping built into the pickup. This can then be fed through a pretty much standard passive volume and tone control (different value pots though) and into an amp, or into a onboard preamp.
Effectively you are right that they are normal magnet and wire coil with a tiny lead to their own preamp... but it's good to make the distinction so people understnad where it is their signal is being buffered.
[/quote]

I hardly think a few mm vs a few cm in the length of the lead between the pickup and the buffer is going to make any real difference.

Edited September 21, 2013 by BigRedX

[Dingus]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1379759919' post='2216474']





BTW What exactly are "active pickups" and how do they differ from a normal magnet and wire coil pickup attached by a very short lead to a pre-amp? I can't help but think that it's all marketing bullshit.
[/quote]

Active pickups use a battery ( or external power supply in extreme cases such as the Alembic Series 1 and Series 2 basses ) to boost the signal coming from the pickup itself , which may then be routed into a preamp for tone-shaping if desired , or not as the case may be . The reason for active pickups is that they allow for a much wider and " truer" frequency response from the pickup , primarily because they allow for far less wire to be wound onto the pickup bobbin . Pickup design is a balancing act between apparent volume and bandwidth . The more wire wound on the bobbin , the louder the pickup , but the more wire , the less frequency extension , particulaly in the higher frequencies . Active pickup designs such as those used by EMG use a very small amount of wire , enabling their characteristic crystaline and noticably "flat" frequency response ( hence why people often find EMG'S a bit too clinical -sounding) , and then achieve a decent level of output by using a dedicated battery to boost the signal from the pickup . This is the opposite approach to what is currently fashionable in conventional passive pickups , which are now often overwound with extra wire to give a bigger , beefier output , but there is often a noticable tradeoff in the treble response of those pickups , with perceivably less "bite" to the sound and a loss of airieness in the treble .

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1379765002' post='2216538']
I hardly think a few mm vs a few cm in the length of the lead between the pickup and the buffer is going to make any real difference.
[/quote]
yes and no. Partly depends on how many pickups you have.

It's a buffer for each pickup.
So it would only make no real difference if we were talking about one pickup or a preamp with each input buffered and then an active blend. Here you're talking about the higher end preamp designs...
A lot (most) of onboard preamps put the pickup signal through a passive blend and volume and then into the preamp for buffering and Eq.

As an aside the original musicman preamp was quite cool in that it fed the pickup straight into the preamp and then used the volume control on the output gain stage of the preamp.

Edited September 21, 2013 by LukeFRC

[BigRedX]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1379766612' post='2216560']
Active pickups use a battery ( or external power supply in extreme cases such as the Alembic Series 1 and Series 2 basses ) to boost the signal coming from the pickup itself , which may then be routed into a preamp for tone-shaping if desired , or not as the case may be . The reason for active pickups is that they allow for a much wider and " truer" frequency response from the pickup , primarily because they allow for far less wire to be wound onto the pickup bobbin . Pickup design is a balancing act between apparent volume and bandwidth . The more wire wound on the bobbin , the louder the pickup , but the more wire , the less frequency extension , particulaly in the higher frequencies . Active pickup designs such as those used by EMG use a very small amount of wire , enabling their characteristic crystaline and noticably "flat" frequency response ( hence why people often find EMG'S a bit too clinical -sounding) , and then achieve a decent level of output by using a dedicated battery to boost the signal from the pickup . This is the opposite approach to what is currently fashionable in conventional passive pickups , which are now often overwound with extra wire to give a bigger , beefier output , but there is often a noticable tradeoff in the treble response of those pickups , with perceivably less "bite" to the sound and a loss of airieness in the treble .
[/quote]

I've persevered with this post (see elsewhere for my comments on your punctuation spacing and the problems it causes for dyslexics like me) because you seem to have something important to say here.

I can see the advantages in using less windings to produce the desired tone and then using a pre-amp to boost the signal to the appropriate level to drive the rest of your signal chain properly.

However there isn't anything "active" about the actual pickup itself. That's still a magnet and wire coil. Also Lace seem to manage to produce a pickup (Alumitone) with almost no wire in it at all that operates at normal output levels without the need to boost the signal (and of course all the unwanted non-string noises that also get picked up and amplified).

[BigRedX]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1379767136' post='2216568']
yes and no. Partly depends on how many pickups you have.

It's a buffer for each pickup.
So it would only make no real difference if we were talking about one pickup or a preamp with each input buffered and then an active blend. Here you're talking about the higher end preamp designs...
A lot (most) of onboard preamps put the pickup signal through a passive blend and volume and then into the preamp for buffering and Eq.

As an aside the original musicman preamp was quite cool in that it fed the pickup straight into the preamp and then used the volume control on the output gain stage of the preamp.
[/quote]

But surely a decent on-board pre-amp should be buffering each input separately? And if you've gone to the trouble of putting an active circuit in there why on earth is the pickup blend and output volume passive? To my thinking these are the things that would benefit most from active electronics.

I can't help but think that in a lot of active basses the pre-amp is nothing more than a compromised EQ circuit that can fit in the space and be driven from a 9V battery and has been specified with no real concern for either the acoustic qualities and the instrument's sound or the sound as produced by the pickups.

[Dingus]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1379771588' post='2216624']
I've persevered with this post (see elsewhere for my comments on your punctuation spacing and the problems it causes for dyslexics like me) because you seem to have something important to say here.

I can see the advantages in using less windings to produce the desired tone and then using a pre-amp to boost the signal to the appropriate level to drive the rest of your signal chain properly.

However there isn't anything "active" about the actual pickup itself. That's still a magnet and wire coil. Also Lace seem to manage to produce a pickup (Alumitone) with almost no wire in it at all that operates at normal output levels without the need to boost the signal (and of course all the unwanted non-string noises that also get picked up and amplified).
[/quote]

Why does everybody have such a problem reading a paragraph? ( I am currently fielding other complaints ). I just don't get it .

I think what you're getting at is that it is still essentially a conventional magnetic pickup , albeit a fairly weak one that needs boosting to reach the required output . That is true . I suppose it depends on your definition of active . I am no electronics buff , to say the least , so I wouldn't ( and couldn't ) get into complex debate over what defines active - to me if it needs a battery , it's active - but the validity conventional approach is borne out by the fact that no radical pickup designs have ever been much practical use . A conventional magnetic pickup is relatively simple (and therefore reliable) , flexible , inexpensive , and sounds the best . What is the point in investing time and effort on radical new technologies that ultimately yield inferior results ?

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='BigRedX' timestamp='1379771991' post='2216627']
But surely a decent on-board pre-amp should be buffering each input separately? And if you've gone to the trouble of putting an active circuit in there why on earth is the pickup blend and output volume passive? To my thinking these are the things that would benefit most from active electronics.

I can't help but think that in a lot of active basses the pre-amp is nothing more than a compromised EQ circuit that can fit in the space and be driven from a 9V battery and has been specified with no real concern for either the acoustic qualities and the instrument's sound or the sound as produced by the pickups.
[/quote] I would kinda agree. It was your comments on preamps that partially steered me to look into and buy the ACG preamp I have in my main bass! So you're to blame for me spending that £200!

I think some of it is to do with how onboard preamps came about on basses. The high end Alembic stuff.... people sticking simple buffers into basses after the volume and tone... increasing to buffer plus 2 band EQ cos it's easy to do.... and so on....

I picked up a cheap 80's japanese bass a few years back - and guess what - cheap pickups into a pickup switch into a volume and into a cheap nasty 2 band preamp. For the price of a dollar or two preamp they could sell the bass as more top of the range. and so on. A lot of the time cheap preamps into lower end bass amps can hide the limits of a bass - it's when you stick it through a PA that the PA guy (and the crowd) realise that your bass sounds a bit rubbish.

I think if you sat down and designed your own bass guitar, from scratch it would either be pure passive, or have a fully buffered active blend preamp... possibly with different switchable impedance loadings for the pickups....