The ol' "active v passive" debate

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1379533343' post='2213922']
The difference is that the amp EQ isn't being forced to run on a 9v battery....
Mind you some classic bass sounds require a certain Eq - the ray, and the slightly nasel sound of a Warwick eq spring to mind
[/quote]
I know what you are saying but people are still boosting frequencies without even knowing it in many cases, I am not familar with every amp but I presume many have active EQs like my Genz heads? Also many basses use 18v or even a lead feeding endless power to the bass from a fixed power supply just like the amp has, I know EBS Freak has this for a fact, it also runs all his leds, metronome and tuner, the average P bass lover would be put off by that without hearing it!

[LukeFRC]

[quote name='cocco' timestamp='1379535594' post='2213980']
Passive for me,

I like the simplicity of use on stage, the natural sound of the bass and the lack of a battery.

I've tried actives and owned many, Warwick streamer s1 5er, musicman bongo and stingray, trace T-bass, Shuker single cut headless 4 and possibly more. I found them mostly lacking personality, with the exception of the ray. They were too clean and clinical sounding. I like things a little rough 'round the edges.

People talk about the output of active basses, and yes it's higher than most passives, but there are plenty of people who'll make you a high output passive pickup.

That said I am currently inexplicably also drawn to the troy sanders bass.
[/quote]

Passive = simplicity??? the first bass in your thread is a Peavey T40!!! I've had one of them - my current bass has a dual filter preamp with 8 knobs... but it's simpler than the passive T40 to get your head round!!!

While we're on the T40....
I had one - and to my hands it felt a little dead, compared to my main bass at the time which is super resonant the T40's massive bridge effectivly decoupled the body from the strings. Odd to play but designed that way and playing with a band you realised it didn't matter too much and it was very rewarding bass to play. My point is that the way the bass was constructed, then the pickups and pickup placement determined the sound - and a active circuit after all that isn't going to make too much difference unless it's been designed that way (in the way a stingray or alembic have).
My point - wether it takes batteries or not is the least of your worries when bass shopping.

[quote name='stingrayPete1977' timestamp='1379539035' post='2214060']
I know what you are saying but people are still boosting frequencies without even knowing it in many cases, I am not familar with every amp but I presume many have active EQs like my Genz heads? Also many basses use 18v or even a lead feeding endless power to the bass from a fixed power supply just like the amp has, I know EBS Freak has this for a fact, it also runs all his leds, metronome and tuner, the average P bass lover would be put off by that without hearing it!
[/quote] I bet however fancy the EBS system they aint pushing mains voltage down the instument cable! My more serious point was that onboard bass preamps are a compromise of design wether they are on 9 or 18v power supply- in each cases the designer has to ballance the best part with it's power consumption. There's no point making a curcuit that sounds amazing but burns through batteries in only an hour. Obviously on an amp you don't have these constraints and can go for higher power consumption chips... or even ramp the power up and use tubes in your Eq section.... ooooo....

[Biaeothanata-Bassist]

I'm more of a Passive fan. Give me a Seymour Duncan SPB/SJB loaded Precision or Jazz bass any day. All I use these days really.

Saying that though, I am a huge fan of "that" Spector tone as well so I might end up getting a Euro 4LX at some point just to have one for whatever situation calls for it. Not planning on doing that soon though, I'm quite happy sticking to the Precision and Jazz basses. I get pretty much every tone I need from them

There's my two pennies worth!

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='KiOgon' timestamp='1379527603' post='2213780']
Like a quality HiFi turntable/arm/cartridge, you get the sound from the source as it's intended, with passive.
[/quote]

Is that any passive pickup? And through what length of cable with what sort of capacitance? Because of course that makes a massive difference to the sound of a passive bass whereas it doesn't so much with an active.

And what amp gives you the most natural sound, after it's been decayed the perfect amount by the perfect length of ideal cable? I guess you've worked that out or you wouldn't be so serious about having to have passive electronics on the bass.

Honestly I've never heard so much nonsense written by otherwise seemingly-rational adults. It's amusing that you brought hi-fi into the discussion in the same post.

[Truckstop]

I like passives because I'm a sort of 'set it and leave it' kind of guy.

My main bass is a BB424x; I have the volume on full, the tone about halfway and both pups 'on'. Amp is flat. If I need to sound big and bassy I play near the neck. If I need bite I use a plectrum, i i need to sound bright ill play near the bridge and so on and so forth.

I don't think I'd ever use a tone near the extremes of what active EQs are capable of. I once owned a Jazz with a John East J-retro and the vast majority of tones available to me were completely useless in a band or recording environment.

Truckstop

Edited September 18, 2013 by Truckstop

[Dingus]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1379543276' post='2214136']

Honestly I've never heard so much nonsense written by otherwise seemingly-rational adults.
[/quote]

Never spent much time on Mumsnet , then ?

[Lfalex v1.1]

[quote name='neepheid' timestamp='1379534886' post='2213962']
I have both, and I like both. Sorry for the boring, non-committal response.
[/quote]

This.
If it sounds good, feels good and plays well, then it is good.
I wouldn't let a bass being active or passive determine whether or not I bought it.

[Prime_BASS]

My experience seems to suggest tgatcactives open up a lot of the extreme bottom and top of the frequency range.

However I use now a passive jazz and it has billions of top end, thanks to far better and simply electronics and the pickups I have are top notch.
A passive bass also works better for me at the moment too.


If this question was asked to hopefully help decide how to get the most bass for your money, find something you like in a shop (jazz over a P for example) and then buy it second hand.

[hamfist]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' timestamp='1379543276' post='2214136']

Is that any passive pickup? And through what length of cable with what sort of capacitance? Because of course that makes a massive difference to the sound of a passive bass whereas it doesn't so much with an active.

And what amp gives you the most natural sound, after it's been decayed the perfect amount by the perfect length of ideal cable? I guess you've worked that out or you wouldn't be so serious about having to have passive electronics on the bass.

Honestly I've never heard so much nonsense written by otherwise seemingly-rational adults. It's amusing that you brought hi-fi into the discussion in the same post.
[/quote]

It 's true. A lot of folks have posted about electronic stuff that they absolutely know nothing about (and I don't claim to be a genius in this regard, but feel that I do know my limitations).

As I understand it the only real difference between playing through a passive pickup into an electric amp (of any sort) and playing an active bass is .....

- that the wire between the pickup and the buffer stages is longer in the passive bass.

- you need battery power on your bass on the active bass (some people don't like this)

- you get more EQ control at your actual fingertips with an active bass. (some people do like this)

Using a passive bass, you STILL use buffers and you STILL have EQ control on your amp (whether a passive or active system on the amp is neither here not there IMO). The ONLY difference to the tone is the length of wire between the pickup and the buffer(s) turning the signal into a low impedance one. The length of that wire being variable as to the length of your cable and having tonal effects relative to that length.

I'd love to hear a rebuff of my comments from someone who knows electronics. I have had no formal electronic education but have built amps etc so have a lot of experience and have read pretty widely.

Oh, I'll use passive or actives, if they sound good !

Edited September 19, 2013 by hamfist

[cocco]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1379540384' post='2214081']


Passive = simplicity??? the first bass in your thread is a Peavey T40!!! I've had one of them - my current bass has a dual filter preamp with 8 knobs... but it's simpler than the passive T40 to get your head round!!!
[/quote]

I hear you, but I got my first one 10 years ago, at 16 so I've kinda grown up with it, granted I didn't really 'understand' it until joining this forum but I've always been able to get a good sound from it.

Also please don't think I'm ignorant of actives, I've owned a few, and really liked one or two, but like I said they've all got sold in the end.

Edit - also the T-40 is by no means perfect, it feels too long, weighs a tonne and is as you say over complicated but it just works for me.

Edited September 19, 2013 by cocco

[CamdenRob]

Seems as if everything has been pretty much covered already in this thread, going to throw my tuppence worth in anyway...

Simple answer is I like both. My active basses give a deep zingy modern sound which sounds great in the studio or playing at home, however I find my passive basses fit in the mix much better when playing at full volume with other people.

Having said that Its my personal opinion that the Wal is one bass to rule them all... although they don't really sound 'active' to me, more like a super charged passive if that makes any sense... probably not... I've confused myself let alone the OP

Rob

[Conan]

[quote name='Biaeothanata-Bassist' timestamp='1379542506' post='2214125']
I am a huge fan of "that" Spector tone as well so I might end up getting a Euro 4LX at some point just to have one for whatever situation calls for it.[/quote]

Hello!

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='LukeFRC' timestamp='1379540384' post='2214081']


Passive = simplicity??? the first bass in your thread is a Peavey T40!!! I've had one of them - my current bass has a dual filter preamp with 8 knobs... but it's simpler than the passive T40 to get your head round!!!

While we're on the T40....
I had one - and to my hands it felt a little dead, compared to my main bass at the time which is super resonant the T40's massive bridge effectivly decoupled the body from the strings. Odd to play but designed that way and playing with a band you realised it didn't matter too much and it was very rewarding bass to play. My point is that the way the bass was constructed, then the pickups and pickup placement determined the sound - and a active circuit after all that isn't going to make too much difference unless it's been designed that way (in the way a stingray or alembic have).
My point - wether it takes batteries or not is the least of your worries when bass shopping.

I bet however fancy the EBS system they aint pushing mains voltage down the instument cable! My more serious point was that onboard bass preamps are a compromise of design wether they are on 9 or 18v power supply- in each cases the designer has to ballance the best part with it's power consumption. There's no point making a curcuit that sounds amazing but burns through batteries in only an hour. Obviously on an amp you don't have these constraints and can go for higher power consumption chips... or even ramp the power up and use tubes in your Eq section.... ooooo....
[/quote]
The circuit in the amp will be at a reduced voltage, the jazz I just sold had a preamp the size of a matchbox containing the same circuit as the ebs microbass amp for example.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='Prime_BASS' timestamp='1379571048' post='2214224']
My experience seems to suggest tgatcactives open up a lot of the extreme bottom and top of the frequency range.

However I use now a passive jazz and it has billions of top end, thanks to far better and simply electronics and the pickups I have are top notch.
A passive bass also works better for me at the moment too.

[/quote]

Yes and you have an active EQ on your amp, we can argue the toss all day but its not that much different to anyone using an active jazz with standard passive pickups other than the distance between the pickup and the controls.

[uncle psychosis]

I've never made a bass-buying decision based on whether or not the bass was active or passive---so long as it sounds good I don't care either way (I have two basses---one active, one passive). With that said, I am very much a "find one good sound and leave it there" kind of guy, so the ability to change sounds quickly using just the controls on my bass just isn't an issue for me.

[stingrayPete1977]

[quote name='uncle psychosis' timestamp='1379584504' post='2214376']
I've never made a bass-buying decision based on whether or not the bass was active or passive---so long as it sounds good I don't care either way (I have two basses---one active, one passive). With that said, I am very much a "find one good sound and leave it there" kind of guy, so the ability to change sounds quickly using just the controls on my bass just isn't an issue for me.
[/quote]
I think this is the most sensible post so far

[Norris]

Passive

I've only ever owned one active bass, and that went through batteries like nobody's business. When your usual awesome tone has suddenly switched to sounding like a mouse fart a couple of times, it tends to put you off. It wouldn't be as bad if there was a gradual degradation as they ran flat. Decent batteries are not cheap when you're replacing them every couple of weeks, and woe be tied if you forget to change them...

I've never been playing and thought "I wish this bass was active". Passive still kicks butt.

[Funky Dunky]

Norris - this is exactly what concerns me about active basses. I understand some run as passive basses when the battery runs out, but most just die completely? This is a REALLY bad design, surely? I don't fancy changing batteries every other week, and you dunno how long batteries are gonna last until you get the bass and find out the hard way, huh?

[Funky Dunky]

[quote name='Dingus' timestamp='1379537919' post='2214034']
Some basses are designed to be active , some are better passive , some work fine either way . I used to favour active basses , probably because when I started playing in the very early 1980's active basses were de rigueur and received widsdom was that they were superior and more useful than passive basses . Fashion is , however , always cyclical and nowadays " retro" basses that you couldn't give away in those days sell for silly money . In truth , though , the whole active-passive debate is a bit of a red herring in so much as all active basses are not alike , and not all passive basses are equal either , so you would have to subdivide each category . The original high-powered , low-impedance active systems developed by Alembic are incredibly dynamic with a very wide bandwidth and create a sound which is unique to those particular kind of active basses . As active caught on as a marketing byword , the simplified circuits that most manufacturers adopted were a poor relation in sonic terms to the the original active concept pioneered by Alembic with such spectacular results . The naked truth is that a great many active basses have very average-sounding electronics in them , and some manage to squeeze much better results out of them than others . The Music Man Stingray , for example , has a crude but effective and very musically satisfying preamp . What people have come to realise in recent years is that in the final analysis ( i.e what comes out of the speakers when you play them ) the sound of passive basses can be just as pleasing as that from their supposedly more sophisticated active counterparts . Passive basses can give the impression ( be it real or imagined) of a more immidiate and less processed tone that seems more directly linked to the player and the way he ( or she!) is attacking the strings . In terms of high-end basses , there is an interesting trend towards what you could term " super-passive" pickups that are specially designed to have the high output and wide frequency response of active basses but are in fact purely passive with all the perceived benefits of that more simple approach . Some of the custom -wound Aero and Seymour Duncan pickups that Fodera are using on their upmarket signature basses are examples of this approach , or the awesome -sounding pickups on the Yamaha BB2024/25 basses , and also the Lakland Chi Sonic's and Hammond Dark Star ( currently not in production ) pickups . Myself personally , I will play any bass , active or passive, and accept or reject it on its' own merits .
[/quote]

Great post, very insightful and helpful. Cheers :-)

[Fat Rich]

[quote name='Funky Dunky' timestamp='1379592056' post='2214526']
Norris - this is exactly what concerns me about active basses. I understand some run as passive basses when the battery runs out, but most just die completely? This is a REALLY bad design, surely? I don't fancy changing batteries every other week, and you dunno how long batteries are gonna last until you get the bass and find out the hard way, huh?
[/quote]

I've never had an active bass that eats batteries, generally they last for ages and I change them as a precaution, not because they've failed.

Just remember to unplug the bass when you're not playing it as that will cut power to the preamp.

[neepheid]

[quote name='Norris' timestamp='1379591087' post='2214490']
Passive

I've only ever owned one active bass, and that went through batteries like nobody's business. When your usual awesome tone has suddenly switched to sounding like a mouse fart a couple of times, it tends to put you off. It wouldn't be as bad if there was a gradual degradation as they ran flat. Decent batteries are not cheap when you're replacing them every couple of weeks, and woe be tied if you forget to change them...

I've never been playing and thought "I wish this bass was active". Passive still kicks butt.
[/quote]

That seems like excessive drain to me. Indicative of possible wiring fault causing the battery to run flat regardless of use, or leaving the bass plugged in? I had a Yamaha BB614 which would go through a battery in a matter of weeks (4-6 if memory serves). This is because I replaced the preamp and wired the ground and switch wires the wrong way round - hence the switch wire was permanently grounded and therefore the circuit was on regardless of it being plugged in or not. Oops!

[uncle psychosis]

[quote name='Norris' timestamp='1379591087' post='2214490']
Passive

I've only ever owned one active bass, and that went through batteries like nobody's business. When your usual awesome tone has suddenly switched to sounding like a mouse fart a couple of times, it tends to put you off. It wouldn't be as bad if there was a gradual degradation as they ran flat. Decent batteries are not cheap when you're replacing them every couple of weeks, and woe be tied if you forget to change them...

I've never been playing and thought "I wish this bass was active". Passive still kicks butt.
[/quote]
[quote name='Funky Dunky' timestamp='1379592056' post='2214526']
Norris - this is exactly what concerns me about active basses. I understand some run as passive basses when the battery runs out, but most just die completely? This is a REALLY bad design, surely? I don't fancy changing batteries every other week, and you dunno how long batteries are gonna last until you get the bass and find out the hard way, huh?
[/quote]

I've had my active bass for more than two years and I've changed the battery....once.

If your bass is dying every fortnight then either you're playing it for 12 hours a day or there's something wrong with your wiring. Even if you accept that for some reason you need a new battery every fortnight, you can buy duracells in bulk for less than £1 each. Thats £26 a year. Compare that to the cost of a years' worth of strings...(or even plectrums if you're forever losing them like I do).

[neepheid]

[quote name='Funky Dunky' timestamp='1379592056' post='2214526']
Norris - this is exactly what concerns me about active basses. I understand some run as passive basses when the battery runs out, but most just die completely? This is a REALLY bad design, surely? I don't fancy changing batteries every other week, and you dunno how long batteries are gonna last until you get the bass and find out the hard way, huh?
[/quote]

Is it really that much of a hardship to carry spare batteries around? It's quicker than changing a string, especially if the battery has tool free access. Even with the need to remove a couple of screws it's probably just as quick as a string change. Also you will find that active basses don't just die suddenly (pure sound one minute, silence the next), if the battery is on a natural, gentle discharge curve which happens through normal use (and not completely flattened by leaving plugged in or through an unfortunate wiring fault) then you will most likely hear the problem before it becomes catastrophic. Alternatively, one could add a low battery warning LED - there are kits available.

In a properly functioning active bass (which is diligently unplugged when not in use), the batteries last for a lot longer than a week or two. In my experience with a faulty bass which caused the preamp to be on constantly it did 4-6 weeks at 24 hours usage. Let's say you play a gig a week at 2 hours playing, a 2 hour band rehearsal a week and let's say you're diligent and solo practice for an hour a night (7 hours). That's 11 hours a week the bass is on. In the faulty example above, being "used" for 168 hours a week meant it conked out in (let's be pessimistic) 4 weeks. That's 672 hours of total duty. If the actual duty is 11 hours a week then that gives you just over 61 weeks of use at that level. A bit over a year. That's just very rough work (need mA drain of the particular preamp and the mAh of the battery plus an accurate breakdown of the time your bass spends actually plugged in to be precise) but it gives you an idea.

It is often the case as far as I can see that this "issue" is pumped up to unreasonable levels to create anti-active scare stories. I for one have never been let down by an active bass on a gig. That's because I'll only be unable to play/complete the gig through my own lack of preparedness or awareness, that's hardly the fault of the bass, is it?

Edited September 19, 2013 by neepheid

[Ou7shined]

If you can't hear your battery dying before it finally goes then you shouldn't really be bothered by the tonal nuances of passive or active.

[lefrash]

Battery usage has never been an issue with any of the active basses I've owned. Saying that, I dont really practice at home alot, so perhaps they werent get hit as much as other people could hit them, but nevertheless battery usage is not something I'd worry about.

I now have a pssive bass, but even when I had the active circuitry I probably didnt use it as much as I could have.

So in other words, I wouldnt personally go out looking for specifically a passive, or specifically an active bass... just go for what feels and sounds the best.