Finding the perfect double bass? (Bryant, Jay Haide, Upton) (£5,500) Limit.

[Beedster]

[quote name='SevenSeas' timestamp='1380284192' post='2223234']
Yeah understandable, I am looking for a bass for the long term though. Not just to see me through college.
[/quote]

Given your evident seriousness and ambition, I doubt a £5k instrument will satisfy your long term ambitions. Enjoy the hunt, and I hope you're successful and prove me wrong
C

[fatgoogle]

I cant imagine it will cost that much to get to germany and back with a bass. Fly to the nearest airport and ive got direct trains from berlin to amsterdam and back. Ferry across. easy.

Also Tony in the contrabass shop is great to deal with. I bought a bow of him over the summer and it was the easiest thing ever. go for a couple of hours, they'll be coffee and biscuits and plenty of bass's. Explain your situation and im sure he'll have something to suit or know some way.

[Rabbie]

Wow, I am fascinated by this thread. I admire you guys for being so passionate about studying music seriously and making it you career. As a guy who has been paid to play gigs for 20 years I feel a bit of a cheat because I have never studied music, then again I play in very different circles and I can "afford" to play much cheaper intruments! (I also dont get paid all that much of course!!) Anyhow, whatever bass you choose to buy and whatever college you choose to study in, well done to you, your commitment is refreshing, as is your willingness to learn and to ask, which is a very important thing in all walks of life....
By the way, I agree, flying to Germany and back with a bass may not be very expensive and a shop may also act on your behalf for a small-ish commission. Good luck!

[Beedster]

[quote name='Rabbie' timestamp='1380290986' post='2223359']
Wow, I am fascinated by this thread. I admire you guys for being so passionate about studying music seriously and making it you career. As a guy who has been paid to play gigs for 20 years I feel a bit of a cheat because I have never studied music, then again I play in very different circles and I can "afford" to play much cheaper intruments! (I also dont get paid all that much of course!!) Anyhow, whatever bass you choose to buy and whatever college you choose to study in, well done to you, your commitment is refreshing, as is your willingness to learn and to ask, which is a very important thing in all walks of life....
By the way, I agree, flying to Germany and back with a bass may not be very expensive and a shop may also act on your behalf for a small-ish commission. Good luck!
[/quote]

+1, it's a really interesting thread, I imagine it's going to tun a while as we all share the O/P's DB buying journey. I wish I had his diligence and patience

[SevenSeas]

[quote name='Rabbie' timestamp='1380290986' post='2223359']
Wow, I am fascinated by this thread. I admire you guys for being so passionate about studying music seriously and making it you career. As a guy who has been paid to play gigs for 20 years I feel a bit of a cheat because I have never studied music, then again I play in very different circles and I can "afford" to play much cheaper intruments! (I also dont get paid all that much of course!!) Anyhow, whatever bass you choose to buy and whatever college you choose to study in, well done to you, your commitment is refreshing, as is your willingness to learn and to ask, which is a very important thing in all walks of life....
By the way, I agree, flying to Germany and back with a bass may not be very expensive and a shop may also act on your behalf for a small-ish commission. Good luck!
[/quote]

I did look at flying back with the bass but I don't think I could risk it. So if I go (depending on when they send me a quote) I'll be flying over and then getting the train back.
it all depends on price, I found a link with the prices the Emanuel Wilfer basses were being sold in America, now I imagine they have to be a hell of a lot to ship them over from Germany to America (then you have VAT on top) so if you went to see them you would be getting the raw price. (no extra) you just have to;
A) Hope that they have the right bass in stock. (so obviously I'm waiting for them to send a quote and I wouldn't go over until they had enough basses in stock. Just looking at one of the videos showed how dedicated they are, they also have a great reputation the price seems pretty good.

[SevenSeas]

[quote name='fatgoogle' timestamp='1380285485' post='2223269']
I cant imagine it will cost that much to get to germany and back with a bass. Fly to the nearest airport and ive got direct trains from berlin to amsterdam and back. Ferry across. easy.

Also Tony in the contrabass shop is great to deal with. I bought a bow of him over the summer and it was the easiest thing ever. go for a couple of hours, they'll be coffee and biscuits and plenty of bass's. Explain your situation and im sure he'll have something to suit or know some way.
[/quote]

When I looked at prices I got quotes;
Flights over;
Train Back;
Staying in a hotel. I'd be there (3 days) or 2 nights. One day getting there, one day trying basses and one day getting the train back.

Understandable about the Contrabass shop it's an option i'm still considering. It really depends on the prices on the Wilfer basses.
I did some estimates and in theory you would get near the top end of their bassist. it's done in grades. For about £7000.

That would be a bass (I would hope so) that would last a long time.

Hand made,
fully carved instrument,
The 'make' has a good reputation (should hold its value) they've been a family business since 1905.
They finish the basses well. (which.... isn't always the case when you have £5k to spend)
for a great price. (the only problem is risking going over there and getting there and the bass not being right or what you wanted. I'll just have to decide.)

Who wouldn't want this guy to make you an instrument!? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCgCPLxcVQg

[SevenSeas]

[quote name='Beedster' timestamp='1380284570' post='2223248']
Given your evident seriousness and ambition, I doubt a £5k instrument will satisfy your long term ambitions. Enjoy the hunt, and I hope you're successful and prove me wrong
C
[/quote]

It's a tough one, it's more the fact that I know between now and finishing music college (If I get in) I won't see 5k again, some people will say but how do you know that?
If I was studying i'd be working less, also if I do decide to work i'd quite like the money to go towards post-graduate study. (maybe i'll change my mind in a few years time) the problem is now that prices have gone up to 9k a year, it's stupid money! (especially as Post-graduate study you fund yourself not through Student Finance)

[Beedster]

[quote name='SevenSeas' timestamp='1380296503' post='2223464']
It's a tough one, it's more the fact that I know between now and finishing music college (If I get in) I won't see 5k again, some people will say but how do you know that?
If I was studying i'd be working less, also if I do decide to work i'd quite like the money to go towards post-graduate study. (maybe i'll change my mind in a few years time) the problem is now that prices have gone up to 9k a year, it's stupid money! (especially as Post-graduate study you fund yourself not through Student Finance)
[/quote]

Points taken, but surely the used market and a patient wait is far more likely to bring the quality you are after at the level of money you have? You seem to be a patient and knowledgable guy when it comes to DB (i.e., the polar opposite of me), I worry that a week or so after buying a new bass at substantially above £5k a used one of equal quality is going to appear on this very forum at substantially below £5k. Worse still, a much better instrument than that you've bought might appear at the same price. I'm looking for a new DB so perhaps can't talk, but I'm doing so for a completely different set of reasons, i.e., I need an instrument that isn't going to require regular set ups and repairs for a few years, that'll do the job and which I know isn't going to suddenly collapse under me! I suspect that in your world, any problems with an old instrument you would be able to find plenty of people to help you fix them which is certainly not the case in mine

Either way, good luck.

C

[fatgoogle]

[url="https://www.musicalchairs.info/double-bass/sales"]https://www.musicalchairs.info/double-bass/sales[/url]

There's a bass for 6000 which might be quite nice.

[mtroun]

I know lots of pros who are playing on lesser quality instruments than a Bryant. Dare I say it, but a 'really nice bass' might not be the best instrument for jazz. The great Dennis Irwin played on a plywood bass. Ray Brown famously traded in his old italians, feeling the sound was too complex for jazz.

The Bryant for me has a pretty massive tone, I'm worried I've worried Andrew with talk of the work that had to be done to it after purchase: ultimately double basses do need occasional repair work regardless of how well they were made in the first place. http://www.soundcloud.com/marktrounson - that's me on the bryant, recorded with a Zoom H2, no amplification. (The older tracks are from a gig on my old stentor through an amp, I'm always surprised at how good it sounds considering how much I hated it!) On Doxy I think you get a pretty good impression of the sound of the bass - hefty! It sounds better now it's had a setup, and I have to admit I'm not producing the best sound that instrument can make - I'm really trying to improve my chops to get a more consistent sound at the moment, regardless of tempo.

And Floyd, good luck that's an admirable goal you've set yourself! Did you know that I'm studying privately with Tom Martin now? More affordable than I thought it would be!

[mtroun]

Oh yeah and Contrabass Shoppe - I really don't understand how they can justify their pricing to be honest...

[oggiesnr]

I was having a chat with the guy who does my bass work some time ago and his take was that there's a big leap in quality and tone etc from "starter" basses to those (both new and second hand) that cost around £3,000 (my probable next purchase point) but to get an equivalent jump beyond that you were probably looking at around £10K. That's not to say that there won't be some brilliant instruments below that (and if you can afford to jump to £5K there's more choice) but as you go up the scale you get less "improvement" per pound than you do at the lower end.

I may have seen my next bass (subject to exam results and good trading at Christmas), a rebuilt (ie all work done and stable) ex music centre bass solid front and back, German about a hundred years old. Having all the work done first is one of the attractions of the instrument.

Steve

[Rabbie]

[quote name='mtroun' timestamp='1380307073' post='2223682']
I know lots of pros who are playing on lesser quality instruments than a Bryant. Dare I say it, but a 'really nice bass' might not be the best instrument for jazz. The great Dennis Irwin played on a plywood bass.
[/quote]

Absolutely true. As I said before I myself am a lover of a good ply: next to useless in the orchestra pit but outstanding in the studio or on the bandstand. Please be mindful of one thing though: Dennis Irwin didn't play your standard European shiny plywood: he played an old American Standard with a massive sound. These kinds of plywood basses still exist and are in the £3K+ region, but don't be fooled by their ply construction: they are truly professional instruments: you won't get that with your Thomann ply...

Edited September 27, 2013 by Rabbie

[SevenSeas]

[quote name='oggiesnr' timestamp='1380307299' post='2223689']
I was having a chat with the guy who does my bass work some time ago and his take was that there's a big leap in quality and tone etc from "starter" basses to those (both new and second hand) that cost around £3,000 (my probable next purchase point) but to get an equivalent jump beyond that you were probably looking at around £10K. That's not to say that there won't be some brilliant instruments below that (and if you can afford to jump to £5K there's more choice) but as you go up the scale you get less "improvement" per pound than you do at the lower end.

I may have seen my next bass (subject to exam results and good trading at Christmas), a rebuilt (ie all work done and stable) ex music centre bass solid front and back, German about a hundred years old. Having all the work done first is one of the attractions of the instrument.

Steve
[/quote]

See this is interesting because if you look at all the basses which are;
10-12k instruments, this seems to be the price range for most double basses made by individual luthiers. ( I could be wrong... just what i've looked at)
The Bryants are often half of this. (But when you look at the differences between Pauls and the other instrumental makers, what are you actually paying for)
Both are making good basses out of quality wood and both are hand made. (I've heard Pauls basses are rough and ready... (this is from someone who's owned a Bryant and i've heard this a few times (not that this is a bad thing because for 4-5k Pauls obviously done a brilliant job) this is why i'd make sure I go and have a good setup done by someone else.
Also someone else said his soloist bass (which says on his website is suited for jazz or popular amongst jazz players) are more suited towards orchestral stuff and didn't fancy them as a jazz bass. (of course these are all opinions, so saying who is right and wrong is pretty tough)
It was someone who owned the Bryant who recommended I try Martyn Baileys 'Jay Haide' bass and he said he wished he went for that instead.

The way I can logically see it; (now I could be wrong... just my opinion)
A) The Bryant, for the price great value, the workmanship isn't (or shouldn't be as good as a 10-12k bass.. but this is obvious. If it sounds just as good then does it matter.
The Jay Haide could be a really nice bass but it's still going to be a 'partly' manufactured bass, so I doubt it will keep its value. It might be the nicest bass to finish though.
C) Emanuel Wilfer bass... they seem to make really nice basses for affordable prices and they've been doing it for years. (of course, you have to go all the way to Germany to get your moneys worth which Is an option. )
D) Thomas Martin Bass, I emailed Tom and he said his basses were 5k + Vat so basically 6k. Parts of the basses are made in the workshop but some parts are made in Hungary. (I think it was Hungary?) What are they like as jazz basses though?

I am still looking at the second hand market but as I haven't got the money upfront yet, (most but not all) I haven't spent too long, I've still been browsing though looking for a gem. (which is well... not easy)

[FLoydElgar]

Mtroun I shall pm you.

[fatgoogle]

I believe bassace has a Martin concert bass. Maybe a pm would be in order.

Edited September 27, 2013 by fatgoogle

[SevenSeas]

[quote name='fatgoogle' timestamp='1380316332' post='2223876']
I believe bassace has a Martin concert bass. Maybe a pm would be in order.
[/quote]

I've spoken to Bass ace already, I said i'd sort something out nearer the time but it's awesome that he has a Bryant and a Martin and an Upton!

[bassace]

I'm just confused. I'm taking my German blonde ply to the Chipping Norton Festival (ChippyJazz) tomorrow.

[mtroun]

Does David Cameron go to the festival?

[bassace]

Don't think so, it's a bit downmarket compared to Cornbury which he usually goes to with his chum Mr Clarkson. I queued up with Mr C at the chippy recently: he looked scruffy and miserable. Sorry, this isn't much about basses is it. I'm playing with a gypsy jazz/folk four piece. If we get asked to do 'something Irish' we tarmac the car park in the interval.

[marvin spangles]

[quote name='SevenSeas' timestamp='1380309148' post='2223732']



D) Thomas Martin Bass, I emailed Tom and he said his basses were 5k + Vat so basically 6k. Parts of the basses are made in the workshop but some parts are made in Hungary. (I think it was Hungary?) What are they like as jazz basses though?


[/quote]

[marvin spangles]

As I said earlier I had an opportunity to hear and play one of Thomas Martin's basses . John Goldsby played on it too. He thought it a nice bass too It would be an excellent jazz bass. Huge quality tone. Judging bass on a brand name is probably not the best approach. No two basses made by the same luthier will be exactly the same. That said there are many higher end Chinese carved basses that are pretty consistent. Perhaps your question might be better answered by playing a load of different basses at your price point and lower. .

[SevenSeas]

[quote name='marvin spangles' timestamp='1380440079' post='2225135']
As I said earlier I had an opportunity to hear and play one of Thomas Martin's basses . John Goldsby played on it too. He thought it a nice bass too It would be an excellent jazz bass. Huge quality tone. Judging bass on a brand name is probably not the best approach. No two basses made by the same luthier will be exactly the same. That said there are many higher end Chinese carved basses that are pretty consistent. Perhaps your question might be better answered by playing a load of different basses at your price point and lower. .
[/quote]

Hi Marvin,

True I will be trying out lots of basses when I have all the money together, although it's true that you shouldn't judge a bass on its brand. Would the brand not have an effect on its overall value, i'e keeping its price? If John Goldsby said they were nice they must be awesome.

[marvin spangles]

The price of a bass is different from its value imo. While it's true that certain names do carry a certain cache that means they will hold their value it doesn't necessarily mean that the bass is particularly good. One of my basses is at least three times the cost of the other. Is it three times better.
No way! Is it worth what I paid for it.? This is a difficult question. When I consider the skill and effort of the luthier I know I've got a bargain. Are there better basses cheaper than mine. I'd say most definitely. It feels like it's [b]my[/b] bass and that's where the value comes in. It's value to me is what's important.
I would say that the Martin Concerto Bass I heard (pizz only) was as good a bass as mine and certainly better value as a jazz bass. I didn't hear how it played arco.
Which is why I bought the bass in the first place. It just turned out to be a great jazz bass to0.
I think there are good basses to be had in the £1200 - 6000 range . Find a bass you like and play the sh*t out of it.

[SevenSeas]

[quote name='marvin spangles' timestamp='1380461775' post='2225577']
The price of a bass is different from its value imo. While it's true that certain names do carry a certain cache that means they will hold their value it doesn't necessarily mean that the bass is particularly good. One of my basses is at least three times the cost of the other. Is it three times better.
No way! Is it worth what I paid for it.? This is a difficult question. When I consider the skill and effort of the luthier I know I've got a bargain. Are there better basses cheaper than mine. I'd say most definitely. It feels like it's [b]my[/b] bass and that's where the value comes in. It's value to me is what's important.
I would say that the Martin Concerto Bass I heard (pizz only) was as good a bass as mine and certainly better value as a jazz bass. I didn't hear how it played arco.

Which is why I bought the bass in the first place. It just turned out to be a great jazz bass to0.
I think there are good basses to be had in the £1200 - 6000 range . Find a bass you like and play the sh*t out of it.
[/quote]

What bass are you using at the moment?
Also I completely agree, I had a similar chat with another bassist who was explaining that if you look at prices it doesn't always reflect value. I think the important thing like you say is if I pick up the bass and feel like its mine.

Also playing the sh*t out of it!