peteb Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='thisnameistaken' post='221687' date='Jun 18 2008, 08:16 PM']I disagree. Learning other peoples' songs only teaches you other peoples' songs. If you sat down with them and studied them in depth then maybe you'd learn something more generally useful about music, but simply lifting the line off a record and memorising it in order to repeat it in a pub at the weekend will teach you nothing. More importantly, that's time you could've spent either studying something more challenging or experimenting on your own, either of which would've had greater returns. I would argue that dissecting a work of literature and demonstrating an understanding of it is a markedly different pursuit to memorising a bass line.[/quote] Surely when you learn a cover you not only work out the bass line – to do it justice you need to have an understanding of the mechanics and arrangement of that song This develops a skill that you utilise when you craft your own songs Also, it’s pretty obvious that the more you play live the better a player and performer you become Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='peteb' post='221713' date='Jun 18 2008, 08:54 PM']Surely when you learn a cover you not only work out the bass line – to do it justice you need to have an understanding of the mechanics and arrangement of that song[/quote] Depends. As a bass player you probably don't need to know anything except the order the notes are in and what the song's supposed to sound like. Whereas you'd need a much better understanding to have written the song in the first place, so again I'll contend that playing covers is not a creative pursuit and it will not bring any benefits to other creative pursuits you may... er... pursue. [quote name='peteb' post='221713' date='Jun 18 2008, 08:54 PM']Also, it’s pretty obvious that the more you play live the better a player and performer you become[/quote] Objection, yer honour; cover bands are only one of many different types of acts which perform live. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabootsy Posted June 18, 2008 Author Share Posted June 18, 2008 i agree i think that anyone could copy a book word for word but that does not mean it gives you any ability to write one Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Still on the writing metaphor: My girlfriend reads more than anyone I know, but always has me proof-read anything she writes and asks me for spellings. Apparently all that reading hasn't been much of a help to her writing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='thisnameistaken' post='221733' date='Jun 18 2008, 09:32 PM']Still on the writing metaphor: My girlfriend reads more than anyone I know, but always has me proof-read anything she writes and asks me for spellings. Apparently all that reading hasn't been much of a help to her writing.[/quote] I think that you have the wrong end of the stick here - surely the important thing is the content of what she writes (from an artistic point of view) rather than the spelling Most novelists will have a sub-editor proof reading their text to check for spelling, syntax & consistency Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianrunci Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 So learning shakespeare and performing it on stage doesn't make people better actors? To truly learn to play a complicated bassline from any record that you find difficult and challenging to play is a learning experience surely. Many of the worlds most talented musicians and songwriters spent years learning and performing other proples tunes. Sting being a prime example. All those years playing in orchestra pits and swing and Jazz bands surely didn't degrade his creative artistry. I imagine there are only two ways to improve as a player and that is to learn challenging lines or to constantly practice scales. I know which I would rather be doing. I played for years in original bands, I have done session work on lots of records where I have had to create lines from scratch and I have also wrote songs, I personally think that the only way I was capable of writing songs was to have some skill and experience to base them on in the first place. I don't think there is much difference whether your playing in a cover band or playing in an original band as far as playing skills go, but when it comes to writing an interesting bassline, having a good idea of how to string one together helps. And surely it depends anyway on what covers you are learning. If you go from playing original indie music to learning tunes by Pastorios & Clarke etc then how can that not make you a better player? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 (edited) [quote name='ianrunci' post='221755' date='Jun 18 2008, 10:07 PM']So learning shakespeare and performing it on stage doesn't make people better actors? To truly learn to play a complicated bassline from any record that you find difficult and challenging to play is a learning experience surely. Many of the worlds most talented musicians and songwriters spent years learning and performing other proples tunes. Sting being a prime example. All those years playing in orchestra pits and swing and Jazz bands surely didn't degrade his creative artistry. I imagine there are only two ways to improve as a player and that is to learn challenging lines or to constantly practice scales. I know which I would rather be doing. I played for years in original bands, I have done session work on lots of records where I have had to create lines from scratch and I have also wrote songs, I personally think that the only way I was capable of writing songs was to have some skill and experience to base them on in the first place. I don't think there is much difference whether your playing in a cover band or playing in an original band as far as playing skills go, but when it comes to writing an interesting bassline, having a good idea of how to string one together helps. And surely it depends anyway on what covers you are learning. If you go from playing original indie music to learning tunes by Pastorios & Clarke etc then how can that not make you a better player?[/quote] I totally agree with two provisos - playing in front of an audience sharpens your skills considerably; and why can't you learn to be a better bass player in the context of playing in an indie band? Having said that, learning jaco bass parts is obviously going to make you a more accomplished player! Edited June 18, 2008 by peteb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianrunci Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='thisnameistaken' post='221716' date='Jun 18 2008, 09:04 PM']Depends. As a bass player you probably don't need to know anything except the order the notes are in and what the song's supposed to sound like. [b]And you need to undrstand the players technique, nuances and timing,[/b] Whereas you'd need a much better understanding to have written the song in the first place, [b]Depends on the song I would think, listening to some of the original bands doing the rounds, understanding seems to be at a premium[/b] so again I'll contend that playing covers is not a creative pursuit and it will not bring any benefits to other creative pursuits you may... er... pursue. [b]To play them you first have to learn them & I think without listening and learning and understanding other players techniques what your most likely to create is drivel that no one wants to listen to[/b] Objection, yer honour; cover bands are only one of many different types of acts which perform live. [b]Your right, but the title of the post says nothing about playing in a cover band, it just says playing covers, and I doubt there is anyone on this forum who didn't learn to play by learning other peoples tunes[/b][/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenofthedepths Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='thisnameistaken' post='221733' date='Jun 18 2008, 09:32 PM']Still on the writing metaphor: My girlfriend reads more than anyone I know, but always has me proof-read anything she writes and asks me for spellings. Apparently all that reading hasn't been much of a help to her writing.[/quote] I disagree completely. If she was copying out everything she read, that would probably improve her spelling. Then again, maybe not; people learn differently. We all approach things in different ways, don't we? [quote name='ianrunci' post='221755' date='Jun 18 2008, 10:07 PM']I imagine there are only two ways to improve as a player and that is to learn challenging lines or to constantly practice scales[/quote] Seriously?! I guess that proves my last point! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
warwickhunt Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='ianrunci' post='221755' date='Jun 18 2008, 10:07 PM']So learning shakespeare and performing it on stage doesn't make people better actors? To truly learn to play a complicated bassline from any record that you find difficult and challenging to play is a learning experience surely. Many of the worlds most talented musicians and songwriters spent years learning and performing other proples tunes. Sting being a prime example. All those years playing in orchestra pits and swing and Jazz bands surely didn't degrade his creative artistry. I imagine there are only two ways to improve as a player and that is to learn challenging lines or to constantly practice scales. I know which I would rather be doing. I played for years in original bands, I have done session work on lots of records where I have had to create lines from scratch and I have also wrote songs, I personally think that the only way I was capable of writing songs was to have some skill and experience to base them on in the first place. I don't think there is much difference whether your playing in a cover band or playing in an original band as far as playing skills go, but when it comes to writing an interesting bassline, having a good idea of how to string one together helps. And surely it depends anyway on what covers you are learning. If you go from playing original indie music to learning tunes by Pastorios & Clarke etc then how can that not make you a better player?[/quote] You get my vote... some of these others aren't arf talking b*ll*cks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianrunci Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='peteb' post='221762' date='Jun 18 2008, 10:19 PM']I totally agree with two provisos - playing in front of an audience sharpens your skills considerably; and why can't you learn to be a better bass player in the context of playing in an indie band? Having said that, learning jaco bass parts is obviously going to make you a more accomplished player![/quote] Don't get me wrong, I love playing Pastorios and clarke tunes but i hate listening to them. I would much rather listen to the Stone Roses or the Smiths any day of the week to jazz funk and jazz rock. I love classic rock & I grew up listening to bands like The Buzzcocks, The Pistols, The Clash etc so I am not trying to be a musical snob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peteb Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='ianrunci' post='221769' date='Jun 18 2008, 10:25 PM']Don't get me wrong, I love playing Pastorios and clarke tunes but i hate listening to them. I would much rather listen to the Stone Roses or the Smiths any day of the week to jazz funk and jazz rock. I love classic rock & I grew up listening to bands like The Buzzcocks, The Pistols, The Clash etc so I am not trying to be a musical snob[/quote] +1 I think that I am bowing out of this argument at this point as you are expressing my point much more eloquently than I am....!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianrunci Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='queenofthedepths' post='221765' date='Jun 18 2008, 10:23 PM']I disagree completely. If she was copying out everything she read, that would probably improve her spelling. Then again, maybe not; people learn differently. We all approach things in different ways, don't we? Seriously?! I guess that proves my last point! If you seriously think that taking a creative writing class, or doing an English lit degree is copying down lines then you are missing the point entirely The same applies to learning complicated bass lines and anyone who thinks all you need to do is learn the notes and thats it I would contend isn't capable of learning them anyway which makes the whole argument pointless[/quote] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenofthedepths Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Not at all; I quite agree with you. I was responding to thisnameistaken's argument, which struck me as more than a little flippant! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ianrunci Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='queenofthedepths' post='221782' date='Jun 18 2008, 10:38 PM']Not at all; I quite agree with you. I was responding to thisnameistaken's argument, which struck me as more than a little flippant![/quote] My apologies I got the posts mixed up lol. My tired brain reacts this way at this time of the night Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 [quote name='queenofthedepths' post='221782' date='Jun 18 2008, 10:38 PM']Not at all; I quite agree with you. I was responding to thisnameistaken's argument, which struck me as more than a little flippant![/quote] I was trying to make a point about how useless analogies of that kind can be. [quote name='ianrunci' post='221755' date='Jun 18 2008, 10:07 PM']So learning shakespeare and performing it on stage doesn't make people better actors?[/quote] Actors are rarely asked to do anything but deliver lines which were written by somebody else. If all you want to do is skilfully deliver things that are written by somebody else then yes by all means learning covers is a great idea. Is that a creative exercise? My answer is still "no". What you didn't consider was that actors rarely mimic other actors, whereas musicians in cover bands routinely mimic other musicians. So again we have an analogy just doesn't work. Have you ever read a review where an actor was lauded for his accurate reproduction of Gielgud's portrayal of Hamlet? [quote name='ianrunci' post='221755' date='Jun 18 2008, 10:07 PM']To truly learn to play a complicated bassline from any record that you find difficult and challenging to play is a learning experience surely.[/quote] Sure, but does it do anything for your creativity? [quote name='ianrunci' post='221755' date='Jun 18 2008, 10:07 PM']I imagine there are only two ways to improve as a player and that is to learn challenging lines or to constantly practice scales.[/quote] I think those two exercises will improve your movement on the instrument, and would of course be a good starting point for any musician, but again I don't think they'd do much for creativity. Certainly not compared to spending the same amount of time either working on a new song or a new arrangement of an old song or even just noodling with the bass on your own. [quote name='ianrunci' post='221755' date='Jun 18 2008, 10:07 PM']I don't think there is much difference whether your playing in a cover band or playing in an original band as far as playing skills go, but when it comes to writing an interesting bassline, having a good idea of how to string one together helps. And surely it depends anyway on what covers you are learning. If you go from playing original indie music to learning tunes by Pastorios & Clarke etc then how can that not make you a better player?[/quote] Well I might be in the minority here but I don't see a hierarchy of bassists with Mani at the bottom and Stanley Clarke at the top. I always loved the stuff Bruce Foxton did on the old Jam records but I doubt he'd spent much time working out Stanley Clarke tunes. The point I'm trying to make is that for a non-professional musician like myself, the time you actually get to spend with your instrument is likely to be fairly limited, and in terms of maintaining creative skills I think learning covers is a big waste of what precious little time you can find. Yeah it might keep your chops in good order, but if you're a bass player in 99% of situations you'll be playing well within your physical limits anyway, so time spent on physically difficult stuff is IMHO time that could be better spent learning something else. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 What worries me is the unwritten assumption that everyone is nailing these grooves in covers bands - based on the ones I've heard the reality is horribly different. To the original poster - are you really making these songs happen or are you just playing the notes? Be honest with yourself. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexclaber Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 Oh yes, and the most important chops for a bass player are the ones everyone takes for granted yet are often so bad at - tone, timing and taste. To hell with playing fancy twiddly stuff, drive the bus first. Alex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thisnameistaken Posted June 18, 2008 Share Posted June 18, 2008 (edited) [quote name='alexclaber' post='221827' date='Jun 18 2008, 11:41 PM']Oh yes, and the most important chops for a bass player are the ones everyone takes for granted yet are often so bad at - tone, timing and taste.[/quote] Big +1 At the moment I'm in the early stages of getting together a sort of stripped-down soul/r&b-based outfit and the bass stuff really is a huge challenge for me. Playing very little but right at the front of the mix, trying to outline the changes behind the vocal without stepping on it, basically being the whole song whilst being invisible and [i]still[/i] grooving. I've done funk gigs before and thought that was a good grounding for anything, but this gig requires a fraction of those chops and yet 100x more skill. Listening to lots of Pino and Hub at the moment. Huge respect for those guys Edited June 18, 2008 by thisnameistaken Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrenochrome Posted June 19, 2008 Share Posted June 19, 2008 [quote name='thisnameistaken' post='221837' date='Jun 19 2008, 12:00 AM']Listening to lots of Pino and Hub at the moment. Huge respect for those guys [/quote] Careful, litening to other people's music will turn you into a brain dead zombie (apparently) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
waynepunkdude Posted June 19, 2008 Share Posted June 19, 2008 (edited) So shakespere played bass but would only play covers that he changed the basslines to? Anyway i think playing bass should be fun i play originals because that is what i enjoy but if you enjoy playing covers then that is awesome because you get paid and play to more people, anyway it should be [b]FUN[/b]. Edited June 19, 2008 by waynepunkdude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
queenofthedepths Posted June 19, 2008 Share Posted June 19, 2008 [quote name='thisnameistaken' post='221812' date='Jun 18 2008, 11:20 PM']I was trying to make a point about how useless analogies of that kind can be.[/quote] Yeah, that thought had crossed my mind too. I think analogies CAN be useful, but only if you're a pedantic sod like me who'll pull himself up every time he adds extraneous factors and remain firmly on the point. No offence to anyone making such analogies, but I think we're all a little prone to hyperbole and rhetoric, which is what renders such analogies useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dabootsy Posted June 19, 2008 Author Share Posted June 19, 2008 I can see both sides of the argument and try to work around the basslines that i need to learn but some you cant as they are the main hook acdc whole lotta rosie for instance i may not know if i have lost any of my creativity until i rejoin another originals band And by the way i didnt say i didnt enjoy playing covers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bilbo Posted June 19, 2008 Share Posted June 19, 2008 (edited) Doing your scales, chords, theory etc is about developing muscle memory and insights so that, when you seek to execute an idea, you are able to do so. Learning to read music has many purposes, one of which would be to allow you to execute the ideas of others. But that particular skill also allows you to record (as in write down) your OWN ideas and recreate them some time later without having to try to 'remember' them. It also allows you to provide instructions for other musicians who agree to work with you in creating your music. All of these skills are necessary to become a rounded player/composer/artist. The problem with suggesting that playing in a covers band is a a 'learning experience' is not that it isn't. it is, but that what you learn is of limited value and can be learned more effectively and quickly in other ways. If you just learn, by rote, Watt-Roy's line for 'Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick', you are only able to play that tune that way in that song. If you study that line, comprehend the scales used, the chords and the context in which they are used and the nature of the choices Watt-Roy made, then clarify which technical/motor skills he is utilising and the extent that they can be built upon to increase your OWN creative potential, then you can probably transfer that information to any one of a myriad of alternative situtations and retain the collected information as a lesson for life. But this assumes several things. Firstly, that the line involved is so critically original that it warrants that level of investment. Secondly, that the motor skills required to execute it are something that the developing player needs to acquire (like two handed tapping, it’s a creative choice but I subjectively think it mostly sounds like a bag of spanners being thrown down the stairs – others disagree and are right to do so). Thirdly, the time it takes to acquire that skill is worth the investment (I have no doubt that I could play like Michael Manring given infinte time and space but, having critically assessed his work (by listening to it), I do not believe that, in order to take my own concepts of musicality further, this amount of effort would be a productive use of my time). Otherwise, thank God that Manring exists and continues to do what he does. Fourthly, that there is something specific about that particular piece of music that makes it important for [i]me/you[/i] to wish to invest [i]personally[/i] in exploring its mysteries. To be blunt, at this point in my career, I have yet to find a 'function band' cover I can't play pretty much straight off, as well as if not better than most of my peers and certainly sufficiently well to satisfy any customer (this is not about playing Weather Report or Stanley Clarke covers which never appear at functions but the about playing the usual bubblegum called for by function/covers bands). Its been a LONG time since I actually 'learned' anything technical from playing covers other than how to play those specific tunes, most of which I can take or leave. The only way to improve is to study music; not licks, riffs, musicians or acres of other people’s basslines but music, the art of it. Learning to write is not about learning to regurgitate other people’s stuff’; thisnameistaken’s girlfriend need's to have something worth writing about before she even starts. If people copy other people’s stuff in literature it’s call plagurism and gets you seriously censured and wholly discredited. In music we call it a tribute band! I sometimes think people are not really aware of what is out there in the world of music and the full potential of music to improve people’s (including their own) lives. They continue to be dazzled by the applause and perceived status achieved and by the reflected glory that is believed to be a consequence of playing ‘the hits’ – I still hear it in jazz (‘he can play ‘Donna Lee’ – so f***ing what? That was nailed three decades ago by Jaco and three decades before THAT by Parker. It’s mostly a party trick and, like all party tricks, impresses the uninformed and nothing more). It’s a hall of mirrors. I am not saying don’t DO covers – this industry demands it of us and, if there are no other gigs out there, I will continue to do it, but let’s not pretend that there is any nobility in it. It can be fun, in spite of its nature, but it is a crass job that fills our wallets (no shame in that) and is no more creative than flipping burgers. I am sure there are plenty of people out there having fun doing just that. Edited June 19, 2008 by bilbo230763 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johngh Posted June 19, 2008 Share Posted June 19, 2008 [quote name='OutToPlayJazz' post='220704' date='Jun 17 2008, 04:12 PM']Hi Dabootsy, yes we all have to play covers at times (and yes, it can get soul destroying!) I never play the original line, always making up my own (which is often more apt to the music!) Or at the least I "soup up" the original and make it better.[/quote] That's the deal, just soup up the original a bit. However, I don't play rock covers anymore, that IS soul destroying just batting about on a few notes all night. DUM DE DUM DUM DE DUM DUM DE DUM DUM DE DUM Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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