Does playing covers sap your imagination and playing

[DirkThrust]

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='222976' date='Jun 20 2008, 02:54 PM']I meant Andy - sorry; you posted whilst I was still typing![/quote]

Aah the joy of internet forums, especially when posting while talking with my boss when I'm supposed to be working.

No I'm not saying that I think people in originals band are tossers, just some of the ones I've met, but I generally agree with the rest of your post.

Edited June 20, 2008 by AndyMartin

[mcgraham]

Just wanted to share a little bit about how my creative juices got flowing to give my comments some context.

My background in music started with playing at church, i.e. playing covers of contemporary worship songs. Nothing too difficult, 99% of the stuff stayed within one key and no odd chords. That was a really safe learning environment for developing creativity, particularly as a bass player. It was about creating a groove (or at least a feel or pulse) first, and then developing note choice. I was envious of guitarists (no shame!) so I eventually took up guitar and also developed my melodic side at home, by imitation of recorded parts I heard/knew/played. That was a more restrictive environment because the music had a fairly rigid structure, and the music was not an end in itself, it was (and is!) about serving the congregation.

A few years later I got involved with a gospel choir. Almost complete musical freedom there with regard to improv, rhythm, groove, feel, pulse etc, whilst still retaining really groovy enjoyable music. I grew massively as a musician there. But I could not have made full use of it without starting in the more restrictive situation.

Why?

The more restrictive environment offered me but a few quite obvious choices on what I could change or contribute to. This was a good thing! The fewer choices you have, the easier the decision is to make. As a beginner in such things it is helpful to be directed towards good choices, and helpful to know when there's a bad one. BUT... in time, this also taught me to [i]see[/i] and to [i]realise[/i] that there are always many other, much more subtle choices that we often miss, or never even consider. It also made me realise that you always have options when playing, however subtle, and it's up to you to make use of the situation.

In short, whatever the level of restriction in a musical environment, you [i]always[/i] have options and opportunities to be creative, it all comes down to whether you see it that way, and the choices [i]you[/i] make when playing.

Mark

[Bilbo]

Cool - Ron Carter once said something about 'free' bassplaying along the lines of 'no thanks. I don't want to be free'. He considered the infinite choices available in that context to be disabling. Like its the frame that defines the artwork and, without it, it has no boundaries and is just so much paint.

My own studies of composition have revealed that one of my problems, one of the barriers to my producing anything of value, is my overwhelming desire to complicate things, to look for complex harmonies, melodies and rhythms; in short, to be 'clever'. By breaking stuff down into diatonic sequences and consciously limiting note choices, I was immediately able to write better tunes. Simple melodies, simple tunes. Then, by starting to build things up from there, progress has become possible.

Your point is essentially about learning to walk before you try running. I think that applies equally to both craft and art. Good point well made.

[jakenewmanbass]

One of my favourite bass players is Jimmy Johnson.
He is creative with root and fifth.
I have been telling students for years, don't try to be clever until you can play the simple stuff to death.
It took me 10 years to feel I was getting somewhere with Major Harmony.

[Bilbo]

It's taken me 28!

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='223064' date='Jun 20 2008, 04:28 PM']It took me 10 years to feel I was getting somewhere with Major Harmony.[/quote]


i'ts alot easier to get in with the privates

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='223062' date='Jun 20 2008, 04:22 PM']My own studies of composition have revealed that one of my problems, one of the barriers to my producing anything of value, is my overwhelming desire to complicate things, to look for complex harmonies, melodies and rhythms; in short, to be 'clever'.[/quote]

Glad it's not just me.

I usually start out with good melodic ideas with no real consideration for how "clever" they are, but as soon as I sit down and try to develop them I end up in exactly that situation. More stuff gets binned for that reason than for being a crap idea in the first place.

[mcgraham]

[quote]My own studies of composition have revealed that one of my problems, one of the barriers to my producing anything of value, is my overwhelming desire to complicate things, to look for complex harmonies, melodies and rhythms; in short, to be 'clever'.[/quote] I used to suffer from the same thing. There's nothing inherently wrong with doing that in your practice times, but when it becomes an end in itself (particularly in performance) it starts to cloud over any good reason for performing.

[quote]Your point is essentially about learning to walk before you try running. I think that applies equally to both craft and art. Good point well made.[/quote]Thanks. Although I think the analogy falls down *chortle* at the point of recognising more subtle/lesser spotted choices.

Mark

[WalMan]

Doesn't bother me, but then I do tend to play around lines as well - if it is a well known bit, not, but otherwise why not. I suppose we do some stuff that allows some latitude though.

[tauzero]

The originals bands I've been in - someone (sometimes me) wrote the song, I worked out a bassline for it.

The covers bands I've been in - someone (never me) write the song, I worked out a bassline for it.

Sinead O'Connor didn't write "Nothing compares 2 U", Prince did. So she's just an uncreative hack.

Mott the Hoople didn't write "All the young dudes", David Bowie did. So they're just uncreative hacks.

Patti Smith didn't write "Because the night", Bruce Springsteen did. So she's just an uncreative hack.


Original music - a way out for musicians insufficiently competent to play covers.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='tauzero' post='229565' date='Jun 30 2008, 11:24 AM']Sinead O'Connor didn't write "Nothing compares 2 U", Prince did. So she's just an uncreative hack.
Mott the Hoople didn't write "All the young dudes", David Bowie did. So they're just uncreative hacks.
Patti Smith didn't write "Because the night", Bruce Springsteen did. So she's just an uncreative hack.[/quote]

Hardly the point, is it? Doing a cover when you write most of your own stuff is completely different to doing only ever doing covers. Doing covers that everyone else also does all of the time places people well into the realms of uncreative hackdom.

I did a gig on Saturday, best paid one in a month. 'I Will Survive'; 'Angels'; 'Signed, Sealed Delivered' - all the hits. Professional? Yes. Competent? Yes. Creative? - in no way whatsoever. It's the MacDonaldisation of music.

Do you want fries with that?

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='229594' date='Jun 30 2008, 12:01 PM']I did a gig on Saturday, best paid one in a month. 'I Will Survive'; 'Angels'; 'Signed, Sealed Delivered' - all the hits. Professional? Yes. Competent? Yes. Creative? - in no way whatsoever. It's the MacDonaldisation of music.

Do you want fries with that?[/quote]

sorry but i dissagree with that. the "MacDonaldisation of music" IMHO is actually the constant release of 'best of' and 'NOW' style compilations, they require no effort, simply regurgitating the same stuff for quick satisfaction.
cover bands require creative input to do the songs. if you choose to mearly regugitate the songs then that up to you. personally most of the cover bands i have seen take their own spin on it no matter how trival you might think it is. doing covers isn't a quick fix solution, they must be learned crafted and then performed to an audience and its rare that it is performed in a clinical manner so as to mimmic the original.

[Bilbo]

Sorry (and I am not being aggressive or confrontational here ) but that sounds like a justification. The levels of creativity required to re-arrange a cover so it is different but still recognisable are real (remember the Yes version of Paul Simon's 'America'?) but re-arrangements of that level of sophistication are relatively rare. Being blunt, I hear very few even remotely creative 'versions' in any of the 4/5 covers bands I play in/dep for. The only 'creative' bits are the bits where noone knows what to do with the instrumental bridge where the original features a horn section.

Its a bit like saying 'every burger is different. I try to ensure that the burger is cooked to the customers exacting requirements, adding the appropriate amount of lettuce or gherkin to each dish with a clear intention to achieve culinary excellence. Some people think this is easy'!

[thisnameistaken]

I'm glad I wasn't the one to introduce the McDonalds analogy.

[mewsie]

i haven't read all this thread to apologies if i repeat a point already made!

i don't think that the creativity needs just to come from the music/bassline. i've seen a good many bands with excellent tunes but are terribly boring to watch. i've also seen lots of bands doing covers, some are capable of making the song their own through being creative with the way they deliver it.

we are just starting to write our own stuff, which is awesome fun, and sparks off my creative side in the same way as a piece of artwork would.

however, we get just as much thrill out of belting out, say, a presidents of the usa cover as we do from doing our own stuff, because its how we deliver it as brothers, sister and friends.

i think i had a point there somewhere.

x

[ianrunci]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='229694' date='Jun 30 2008, 01:39 PM']I'm glad I wasn't the one to introduce the McDonalds analogy. [/quote]

No I think it was me earlier in the conversation Unfortunately thats the way life is now, people like convenience. I doubt it will change

[tauzero]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='229594' date='Jun 30 2008, 12:01 PM']Hardly the point, is it? Doing a cover when you write most of your own stuff is completely different to doing only ever doing covers. Doing covers that everyone else also does all of the time places people well into the realms of uncreative hackdom.[/quote]

You didn't address my first two sentences (nice selective quoting there). If I work out a bassline for a song, that's a piece of creativity on my part. Why is it more creative for me to work out the bassline if Steve Brown wrote the chords than if Chuck Berry wrote them?

[Bilbo]

[quote name='ianrunci' post='229709' date='Jun 30 2008, 02:01 PM']Unfortunately thats the way life is now, people like convenience. I doubt it will change[/quote]

I think it does, quite regularly. People are out there watching bands and then quickly become aware that they are seeing the same thing again and again and eventually stop going and stay at home with Cds, DVDs and YouTube. So the audience in 2008 is not the same audience as in 2005; they have all gone home to their iPods. As a musician and music fan who spends 100s of hours and 1000s of pounds a year on music, I am amazed at how rare it is to see something that I want to go out to see/hear. I think this dumbing down is undermining the potential of live music and is, in the long run, counter-productive....

[ianrunci]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='229717' date='Jun 30 2008, 02:07 PM']I think it does, quite regularly. People are out there watching bands and then quickly become aware that they are seeing the same thing again and again and eventually stop going and stay at home with Cds, DVDs and YouTube. So the audience in 2008 is not the same audience as in 2005; they have all gone home to their iPods. As a musician and music fan who spends 100s of hours and 1000s of pounds a year on music, I am amazed at how rare it is to see something that I want to go out to see/hear. I think this dumbing down is undermining the potential of live music and is, in the long run, counter-productive....[/quote]

I wouldn't say anything ever changes on the cover band curcuit. Its been going on for years. Since the dance bands of the 40s and 50s through to the dance hall bands of the 50s and 60s and the club scene in the 70s and 80s.

Cover bands are just a different alternative to a DJ, I can't see that ever changing. And personally I would rather see musicians get the work rather than DJs

[mewsie]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='229717' date='Jun 30 2008, 02:07 PM']I think it does, quite regularly. People are out there watching bands and then quickly become aware that they are seeing the same thing again and again and eventually stop going and stay at home with Cds, DVDs and YouTube. So the audience in 2008 is not the same audience as in 2005; they have all gone home to their iPods.[/quote]

certainly with the people i know that isn't the case. if its a choice of sitting at home listening to a cd or nipping into town to sit with friends while a decent band play music, be it covers or otherwise, we'd go for the live music almost every time. i understand that may not be the case with many people!

the energy you get from being in a venue with live music playing is, imo, a totally different experience to being sat at home. regardless of whether the band wrote the song themselves or not.

unless the band are dull to watch, but that is nothing to do with the song they are playing.

x

Edited June 30, 2008 by mewsie

[lowhand_mike]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='229717' date='Jun 30 2008, 02:07 PM']I think it does, quite regularly. People are out there watching bands and then quickly become aware that they are seeing the same thing again and again and eventually stop going and stay at home with Cds, DVDs and YouTube. So the audience in 2008 is not the same audience as in 2005; they have all gone home to their iPods. As a musician and music fan who spends 100s of hours and 1000s of pounds a year on music, I am amazed at how rare it is to see something that I want to go out to see/hear. I think this dumbing down is undermining the potential of live music and is, in the long run, counter-productive....[/quote]

there is a pub near me that always has live music be it original or covers and is always packed and has been doing this for a very long time.

but what right for one man is complete tosh for another. aint humans great.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='ianrunci' post='229724' date='Jun 30 2008, 02:13 PM']Cover bands are just a different alternative to a DJ, I can't see that ever changing. And personally I would rather see musicians get the work rather than DJs[/quote]

Agreed but two wrongs don't make a right.

Some musicians and I () were discussing this on Saturday (we were playing a wedding and the thing was running late (never!!!) so we had time to kill and we were discussing the 'give them what they want' philosophy. The question was asked 'how many 'functions' have you gone to as a guest (not as a player) where there was band playing'. The average amongst the 5 of us was one every two years. So, we asked, how can anyone even begin to know what the audience 'wants' when they are a, never asked and b, guaged from only 4 gigs a decade per punter? Is there some sort of mass hysteria where if a crowd exceeds 12, it functions like the Borg Collective and only wants 'Ain't Nobody', 'Respect' and 'Son of a Preacher Man'? We should be told.

Personally, I think we are deluding ourselves and selling our audiences short with this stuff (but, then again, you knew I thought that, didn't you).

[ianrunci]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='229733' date='Jun 30 2008, 02:23 PM']Agreed but two wrongs don't make a right.

Some musicians and I () were discussing this on Saturday (we were playing a wedding and the thing was running late (never!!!) so we had time to kill and we were discussing the 'give them what they want' philosophy. The question was asked 'how many 'functions' have you gone to as a guest (not as a player) where there was band playing'. The average amongst the 5 of us was one every two years. So, we asked, how can anyone even begin to know what the audience 'wants' when they are a, never asked and b, guaged from only 4 gigs a decade per punter? Is there some sort of mass hysteria where if a crowd exceeds 12, it functions like the Borg Collective and only wants 'Ain't Nobody', 'Respect' and 'Son of a Preacher Man'? We should be told.

Personally, I think we are deluding ourselves and selling our audiences short with this stuff (but, then again, you knew I thought that, didn't you).[/quote]

Well personally I think they know what they are getting when they book a band. We have our complete songlist on our website. When someone books us for a wedding I presume they know what they are getting. If they wanted an original band I don't suppose they would book us in the first place.

Also its a business as well and I have yet to come accross a successful business that doesn't give the public what they want. I don't see it as my job to musically educate the public. If I did I would no doubt be teaching them completely different concepts than say you would for instance. Its all relative to individual choice I suppose. However I am pretty certain that anyone booking us for a wedding would much rather have us play the usual standards than give them our version of a spinal tap jazz odyssey. That would be a comfortable 10 minutes

[jakenewmanbass]

Ahhhhh the Monday debate.
On Mondays, after a hard weekends gigging, I take kids to school, dog for walk make enough bread for 4 days (by hand mind you) cycle to the pool, swim a mile, cycle back then have a late lunch and settle down to read the Monday Basschat debate It's great, better than telly.
Cheers fellas.

[mewsie]

is it monday?

x