Electric bass in Jazz (as opposed to Fusion, Jazz Rock etc)

[Bilbo]

I had a great e perience last Sunday, playing with saxophonist Gilad Atzmon. Gilad has a reputation for furious tempos and high energy playing and, although he was not nearly as intense as his reputation suggested, it was a roast. I was required to play some of the fastest tempos I have ever experienced but got through the night all but unscathed. Nevrrtheless, expecting the worst, I had brought my Wal and played the encore, Georgia On My Mind, using the electric.

Our usual drummer, who I have gigged with extensively and who has an enviable cv, was not on the gig due to back trouble but he was in the audience. He is very supportive of my electric playing but, for once, had the chance to listen from an audience perspective. His feedback was positive and included a comment I want carved on my gravestone! He said he couldn't hear much difference and that, like Steve Rodby, he heard only the music and not the change of instrument.

I have spent a lot of time thinking about the electric in Jazz and, to my ears, it rarely works. Steve Swallow has it covered and there are others but there are recordings by Jaco, Gary Willis and 100s of other fantastic electric players playing Jazz but it so often lacks the depth I associated with the bass in this music and sounds, errr, pingy. Its not about technique, there are plenty of monster tecnicians out there, but about tone in context. Most electric sounds don't work that well for Jazz.

What does everyone else think?

[peteb]

I'm afraid that I do not have the knowledge or interest in jazz to talk about how an electric bass works in that context. However, what your drummer said does make perfect sense...

[Telebass]

I think, on the whole, that you're right, but like so much else, depends who's doing it, and on what. Depending on setup and stringing, as well as technique, I imagine it's possible to get pretty close with an electric, but uncommon to 'not hear the difference'.
If you go back to the earliest days, when even the amplified electric was not that much louder than an upright, then it was probably a great deal easier to not know the difference on pure listening. This test has been done. Take a 52 P-bass, set up and strung as in 1952, an original 26 watt Bassman, set on medium volume, play with thumb. "...the loudest upright you ever heard!"
Today's instruments and, particularly, amplification, don't really allow it to get that close any more, without serious effort, that is.
That's my take on it.

[BetaFunk]

Steve Swallow is a great example that it can work but i reckon Swallow is an amazing player and so different to any other bass player i've ever seen. Sonny Rollins often had an electric bass player with him in the 70s, 80s & 90s as did Jackie McLean and Gil Evans used an electric bass in his band from the 70s.
Here in the UK i've seen electric bass players like Laurence Cottle plus a few others pull it off in a jazz setting rather than a fusion one but i think you're right, it rarely works.
I often wonder if it's because electric bass players play like electric bass players (if that makes sense) and not like acoustic (upright) players. I'm only guessing this as i'm more of a bass enthusiast rather than a player but i bet that someone like Ron Carter would fit in on electric bass in a jazz setting.

[Skol303]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1365599991' post='2041614']
Remember the mantra....

'No-one notices the bass player unless he catches fire....'
[/quote]

[BetaFunk]

Mr Rollins and Electric Bass........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niLEJhpQ59s

[lowdown]

In the 50/60's Monk Montgomery did ok (great) with it, he seemed to get that natural decay and lovely thick round tone of an Upright,
he was also a good DB player that could swing nicely, which helped...but yep, they are few and far between.


Garry

[Lowender]

Okay, I'll go against the grain.

I think neither Steve Swallow, Jaco or Gary Willis play what I would consider "traditional jazz." They're stylists. Out of the 3 of them, only Jaco swings (IMO) and swinging is where the tone of the upright seem to sound "right." For anything else "jazzy" , of course the electric is viable, if not preferable.

Swinging electric bass is rare, but I believe it works just fine, as long as it's played well. Jim Fielder played great swing bass. Buddy has some great electric players. Lionel Hampton preferred it. Stanley is great, Bob Cranshaw, etc, etc. I think it's just a sonic thing. Can you play jazz guitar on a strat? Well, it's not the norm, but of course you can.

Electric is great for jazz, but there is a snobishness against it. That's all it is.

[jakenewmanbass]

My feeling (as a player of both) is that the sound of the bass guitar is too uniform to provide the range of tones that make a good walking bass line really work. The BG can swing and some of the names mentioned here do a fab job. I just prefer the sensibility of the upright both as player and listener.

[blamelouis]

Anybody recommend any good Steve Swallow recordings ?

[Dingus]

I get the distinct impression that most straight -ahead jazz musicians still have a strong preference for the upright . You can see why ; the upright has a depth and intimacy that the electric can't really compete with . The electric bass has its' own strengths and virtues , but the traditions and conventions of jazz dictate that the upright is usually the most appropriate choice , just the same way that the electric bass is the best choice for rock and pop music . My favourite trumpet player is Freddie Hubbard and I love the crossover jazz-funk fusion records he did in the mid to late Seventies , but I recently saw an interview with him where he said he only made that music because it was the only way to keep making money when jazz was out of vogue , and that he was much happier now that the musical environment had changed and he could go back to playing with a quartet with an upright bass . As long as the music feels good , that's all that matters , and for a lot of jazz the upright feels most natural .

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='blamelouis' timestamp='1379778505' post='2216699']
Anybody recommend any good Steve Swallow recordings ?
[/quote]
Any of his recordings as a leader or with Gary Burton or Carla Bley are worth investigating.

Probably a good place to start is with the 1960s Gary Burton Quartet LP 'Lofty Fake Anagram' or the 1970s Burton/Swallow duo LP 'Hello Hotel' on ECM and his duos with Carla Bley...................

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkBU5aM_6zM

Edited September 21, 2013 by BetaFunk

[4000]

For me it's definitely a lot about tone, and one reason I think it so often doesn't work is because the tones used by many electric players in this context are so far away from what an upright is about. Too often the tones are back pickup-y, or too thin/scooped, or too piano-like, too precise, too modern/clear/clean (in the wrong sort of way). Try a semi-acoustic with flats, or maybe a P with flats, or something with a true neck pickup using neck pickup only etc etc. Fretless may not be a bad idea, but not in a modern 'mwah' sort of way. Oh, and I agree that the swing's the thing. Many electric bassists simply don't have the right sort of feel, although I personally feel that your tone points the way in terms of what and how you play. I agree about Jaco though, and find it depressing that so many Jaco acolytes fail to try and emulate his sense of time and swing (for me his greatest assets), instead concentrating on the 'tricks'.

Edited September 21, 2013 by 4000

[tinyd]

I have absolutely no 'ideological' objection to electric in jazz, but as others have said, there's something about the sound profile of the notes on an upright that seems to sit better. It also might be something to do with the fact that the kick drum isn't used in the same way in jazz, so the bass needs to provide more of a rhythmic 'thump', or it could be just that I prefer the sound

[louisthebass]

To be honest, as much as I love to hear an electric player swing on jazz standards, the upright beats it. The electric bass has too much sustain, whereas the shorter decay of the notes on the upright sits better in the mix when a bassist is playing in two or four on a standard.

[Lfalex v1.1]

EUB for when you just can't choose?

[Lowender]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1379779990' post='2216715']
Any of his recordings as a leader or with Gary Burton or Carla Bley are worth investigating.

Probably a good place to start is with the 1960s Gary Burton Quartet LP 'Lofty Fake Anagram' or the 1970s Burton/Swallow duo LP 'Hello Hotel' on ECM and his duos with Carla Bley...................

[media]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkBU5aM_6zM[/media]
[/quote]

Okay, I'll say it. It's very nice. But nothing extraordinary. There are thousands of bassist who could play and solo as well and probably about three million guitarists. That's not to say it doesn't have merit. But I just don't hear the spectacular-ness. Or the jazz.

[oggiesnr]

Bilbo, did you play the same line or did you go up into the high end because you could?

This, to me, is the big difference. Although the upright bassists can and do go up into thumb position the bulk of their work seems to stay down low. The electric bassists (as per the video clip) go up high.

Steve

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1379875278' post='2217704']
Okay, I'll say it. It's very nice. But nothing extraordinary. There are thousands of bassist who could play and solo as well and probably about three million guitarists. That's not to say it doesn't have merit. But I just don't hear the spectacular-ness. Or the jazz.
[/quote]
I was simply answering a request from someone who asked whether anyone could recommend any Steve Swallow recordings.

I really couldn't care less what you think at all.

[Lowender]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1379978854' post='2219188']
I was simply answering a request from someone who asked whether anyone could recommend any Steve Swallow recordings.

I really couldn't care less what you think at all.
[/quote]

And I don't care what you think. What a coincidence.

It's a message board pal. People give their opinions. It creates discussion. No need to be an arse about it.

[Bilbo]

Reel it in guys. Swallow is a master musician who cannot be easily defined by one track.

Try Shoe Dog, Alfie or Away, 3 tracks he has done with John Scofield. The secret is not to be able PLAY the solos but to be able to CONCEIVE them. There are few as musical as Good Citizen Swallow.

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1380015019' post='2219412']
Reel it in guys. Swallow is a master musician who cannot be easily defined by one track.

Try Shoe Dog, Alfie or Away, 3 tracks he has done with John Scofield. The secret is not to be able PLAY the solos but to be able to CONCEIVE them. There are few as musical as Good Citizen Swallow.
[/quote]
I've seen him live with Gary Burton, Paul Motian, Carla Bley & The Jazz Composers Orchestra and have always been impressed with his playing.

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' timestamp='1379874644' post='2217687']
EUB for when you just can't choose?
[/quote]
That's a good point but one of the first EUB players i ever saw (in the 70s) was Eberhard Weber who sounded more like an electric bass than any upright bass.

[Lfalex v1.1]

True enough. EUBs cover a broad range of designs, sounds and playability. Some nearer to DB, some nearer to BG.
Mine sounds like a very big fretless Bass Guitar with stupid amounts of sustain....

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='Lfalex v1.1' timestamp='1380021839' post='2219571']
True enough. EUBs cover a broad range of designs, sounds and playability. Some nearer to DB, some nearer to BG.
Mine sounds like a very big fretless Bass Guitar with stupid amounts of sustain....
[/quote]
I should have said the Weber's was obviously one of the first and would think that EUBs, pickups etc have improved a lot since then but his had a really distinctive tone.