Electric bass in Jazz (as opposed to Fusion, Jazz Rock etc)

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1379983299' post='2219217']
And I don't care what you think. What a coincidence.

It's a message board pal. People give their opinions. It creates discussion. No need to be an arse about it.
[/quote]
Oh it's a message board alright. It's just that some messages are totally irrelevant and aren't worth reading but thanks for reminding me pal.

[Lowender]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1380028150' post='2219721']
Oh it's a message board alright. It's just that some messages are totally irrelevant and aren't worth reading but thanks for reminding me pal.
[/quote]

What you really mean to say is you think anything you disagree with is irrelevant. I think posts that make such comments are irrelevant. To each his own.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Lowender

[Lowender]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1380015019' post='2219412']
Reel it in guys. Swallow is a master musician who cannot be easily defined by one track.

Try Shoe Dog, Alfie or Away, 3 tracks he has done with John Scofield. The secret is not to be able PLAY the solos but to be able to CONCEIVE them. There are few as musical as Good Citizen Swallow.
[/quote]

That's the wonderful thing about music! If you play the right notes in the right place, it can sound glorious. And it's all subjective. Ace Frehley plays the right notes in the right place so who's to say his solos aren't as great as Pat Metheny's? It's all taste.

Steve's playing just doesn't hit me for the reasons stated. He's a fine musician. I just hear it as rather generic and a tad dull. To ME.

It's funny though that you thought I was making that judgement from that one clip. lol

As for PLAYING and CONCEIVING a solo -- it's really the same thing, unless you're talking about copying something.

Anyone can disagree with this...but save the personal attacks.

Edited September 24, 2013 by Lowender

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1380029026' post='2219744']
What you really mean to say is you think anything you disagree with is irrelevant.
[/quote]
Perhaps you could tell me what i'm going to have for dinner so i can buy the appropriate bottle of wine on the way home.

[Bilbo]

Stop it, the pair of you, or I'll start deleting posts

[lowdown]

What ho ! What's going on in the Jazz club then ?
In the red corner, a German style bow, and in the blue corner,
a French style bow.

Edited September 24, 2013 by lowdown

[Lowender]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1380049503' post='2220166']
Stop it, the pair of you, or I'll start deleting posts
[/quote]

I'm not the one doing the attacking -- only responding to it. But I stopped. : )

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='Lowender' timestamp='1380050520' post='2220180']
I'm not the one doing the attacking -- only responding to it. But I stopped. : )
[/quote]
Priceless.

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='Bilbo' timestamp='1380049503' post='2220166']
Stop it, the pair of you, or I'll start deleting posts
[/quote]
Sorry Bilbo. I promise to be good.

[spencer.b]

On the whole I find EB doesn't really swing ( although I love swallow, jaco, jeff andrews etc ) in a straight ahead setting and for me it's something to do with the right hand. Not really sure why exactly but maybe it's to with the amount of flesh on the string and the weight of the arm and the sense of momentum this generates with the crotchet feel ?

[KevB]

I thought Steve Swallow might work in a Police tribute. But then I realised...

One Swallow does not a Sumner make....



cloakroom attendant, yes that's mine hanging over there..cheers.

[Lowender]

[quote name='spencer.b' timestamp='1380054597' post='2220299']
On the whole I find EB doesn't really swing ( although I love swallow, jaco, jeff andrews etc ) in a straight ahead setting and for me it's something to do with the right hand. Not really sure why exactly but maybe it's to with the amount of flesh on the string and the weight of the arm and the sense of momentum this generates with the crotchet feel ?
[/quote]

I think it's also the "upright" direction. I find that if I play an electric in the upright position (on a stool) it seems to swing better. There's no logic behind that reasoning, it just is.

[mtroun]

For Steve Swallow I'm quite partial to his playing with the Paul Motian electric bebop band (Try 'Flight Of The Blue Jay') and his work with Jimmy Guiffre. He was also a fabulous acoustic bass player back in the 60s, his work with Art Farmer really shines. There's also some Motian albums with both electric bass (Steve Swallow) and acoustic bass (Larry Grenadier) such as 'Trio 2000+1' (though the piano player on that record may get on your nerves!)

One of the reasons I think Steve Swallow is a good jazz electric bass player is that he's got his own concept on the instrument, rather than trying to make it sound like a double bass. He doesn't tend to play a lot of totally straight ahead music anymore, perhaps because he's aware that the only sound for that kind of music is the acoustic bass?

In the end they are different instruments. The electric bass doesn't really fit into the sonic space that the double bass does, so it can be hard to make it work in a jazz setting. I know which instrument I prefer to play.

[BetaFunk]

[quote name='mtroun' timestamp='1380124058' post='2221199']
For Steve Swallow I'm quite partial to his playing with the Paul Motian electric bebop band (Try 'Flight Of The Blue Jay') and his work with Jimmy Guiffre. He was also a fabulous acoustic bass player back in the 60s, his work with Art Farmer really shines. There's also some Motian albums with both electric bass (Steve Swallow) and acoustic bass (Larry Grenadier) such as 'Trio 2000+1' (though the piano player on that record may get on your nerves!)

One of the reasons I think Steve Swallow is a good jazz electric bass player is that he's got his own concept on the instrument, rather than trying to make it sound like a double bass. He doesn't tend to play a lot of totally straight ahead music anymore, perhaps because he's aware that the only sound for that kind of music is the acoustic bass?

In the end they are different instruments. The electric bass doesn't really fit into the sonic space that the double bass does, so it can be hard to make it work in a jazz setting. I know which instrument I prefer to play.
[/quote]
I totally agree about Swallow's acoustic bass work in the 60s. I did mention his 60s work when someone asked if anyone could recommend some of Swallow's recordings. I've seen him live on numerous occasions and have always been impressed.

You obviously know what you are talking about so i need to pick your brains and wonder if you could answer this. Whenever the question about electric bass v upright acoustic bass comes up in a jazz context most people mention that the electric bass doesn't 'swing'. I suppose most peoples idea of jazz is just that but i've seen enough jazz to know that a lot of it doesn't 'swing' and even in those groups that don't 'swing' the choice of bass is nearly always upright acoustic. Is it just the sound it makes or is it also that it fits in better with the usual jazz instrumentation?

[Lowender]

Here's a statement. Seems to work pretty well. Mostly swing, mostly electric. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vE4FoJ4Cr4

[Bilbo]

[quote name='mtroun' timestamp='1380124058' post='2221199']
'Trio 2000+1' (though the piano player on that record may get on your nerves!)

[/quote]

Just a bit..... chuffin' irritatin. Ruins the album for me.

[bassace]

The EB really came into its own in the mid sixties - because it was there and the DB was difficult to amp with the kit available. The only near-acceptable piece of gear was the Di Armond contact mic and that was pretty mushy. So people were leaving the double bass in droves - a good time to buy in retrospect. The EB couldn't really get close to the sound of the DB and always seemed to be to forward in the mix; just listen to the bass on the previous clip. At that time fusion was starting to make itself heard so the EB fitted in; I remember reading an article that asserted that the EB was probably the most significant instrument to have entered the jazz world over the past few decades.

I remember I left the DB behind and played EB for quite a while. It was great to be heard easily. Trouble was I naturally played DB just in front of the beat to be decent but when I played EB it got a bit too much and some of my fellow musos reckoned I was a bit rubbish. So it was a happy day when I went up to Footes and bought my double bass for the second time.

[mtroun]

[quote name='bassace' timestamp='1380224305' post='2222617']
I remember I left the DB behind and played EB for quite a while. It was great to be heard easily. Trouble was I naturally played DB just in front of the beat to be decent but when I played EB it got a bit too much and some of my fellow musos reckoned I was a bit rubbish. So it was a happy day when I went up to Footes and bought my double bass for the second time.
[/quote]

I absolutely love this story!

[mtroun]

[quote name='BetaFunk' timestamp='1380130300' post='2221316']
You obviously know what you are talking about so i need to pick your brains and wonder if you could answer this. Whenever the question about electric bass v upright acoustic bass comes up in a jazz context most people mention that the electric bass doesn't 'swing'. I suppose most peoples idea of jazz is just that but i've seen enough jazz to know that a lot of it doesn't 'swing' and even in those groups that don't 'swing' the choice of bass is nearly always upright acoustic. Is it just the sound it makes or is it also that it fits in better with the usual jazz instrumentation?
[/quote]

I think it's probably something about the decay of the notes that creates the 'swing' comparison. I'm not sure if I really agree that you can't play swinging music on the electric bass, but if someone asked me to do a straight ahead gig I feel the sound of the double bass (that's not just the frequencies but the attack and decay of the sound) is going to fit in much better and be much less hard work. The electric bass to me doesn't quite have the 'gravity' if you like which probably comes from the fact it speaks less quickly than an electric bass would.

And yes, a lot of jazz (let's not get bogged down too much in what does and doesn't constitute jazz) today is pretty far removed from swing and various other aspects of the jazz tradition. I sometimes question the use of the acoustic bass in 'jazz' music that draws on other popular forms for its rhythmic inspiration, but I suppose most players who describe themselves as jazz musicians have some sort of connection to bebop-era jazz, even if that's not immediately evident from the music they're playing, and they go with the instrument that has the longer heritage in jazz.

One of those discussions that doesn't seem to go on all that much is how bass players are expected to do a lot today on the acoustic bass that would've been considered incredibly virtuoso 70 years or so ago. There is sometimes also a brand of snobbishness about bass players using amplifiers in some acoustic jazz contexts, yet because of the influence of pop music as well as technology, I'm pretty sure everyone else (especially drummers) is playing considerably louder than they would have before the widespread availability of bass amplification. It seems to really depend who you talk to. Are players who use the amplifier as a large part of their sound (I'm thinking George Mraz, Palle Danielsson) somehow inauthentic, particularly considering their straight-ahead jazz credentials? And is it really appropriate to play on gut string and no amp when almost no drummers use calf drum skins?

[Bilbo]

I remember many years ago a pianist friend referrng to the strained nature of the double bass and the way in which it sounds like a singer reaching for a note just out of reach. This creates a tension that the absolute accuracy of the electric doesn't share. Absolutely accurate intonation is rare and that nearly but not quite adds something to the mix.

[spencer.b]

[color=#282828][font=helvetica, arial, sans-serif]Are players who use the amplifier as a large part of their sound (I'm thinking George Mraz, Palle Danielsson) somehow inauthentic, particularly considering their straight-ahead jazz credentials? And is it really appropriate to play on gut string and no amp when almost no drummers use calf drum skins? [/font][/color]

[font="helvetica, arial, sans-serif"][color="#282828"]now I love palle danielson , My song and belonging are among my favourites and george mraz is a great player however if we talking about straight ahead jazz being standards played with the usual 2 in the head 4 in the solos, head solos bit of trading head. like say late 50s blue note then yeah I think the pickup amp sound is inauthentic. I think gut and no amp is the most appropriate way to go. [/color][/font]
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1HvI-uiwCQ"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t1HvI-uiwCQ[/url]