Artists or Craftsmen

[BOD2]

Inspired by a couple of threads about cover bands and integrity, it occurs to me to pose the question ...

"Do you see your own playing as an art or as a craft" ?

This is not meant to be a judgemental question, I'm just curious to see people's opinions.

My own personal feeling is that my playing is more of a craft. Certainly at the moment. It's possible that I could develop more in the "art" side given the right circumstances but I don't feel I have those right now.

I don't feel this is necessarily a bad thing. I think that in a band situation it might be useful to have one or a couple of artists who handle the creative writing and some craftsmen who help interpret their ideas - perhaps a band full of artists might get a fraught due to conflicting ideas.

Anyway, over to basschat. What are your thoughts on the matter ?

[cheddatom]

The sounds I make with my band using my bass, pedals, and amps, I would class as a sort of art.

When I play drums for the premature ejaculators, that feels like a craft.

[queenofthedepths]

It's probably not worth pointing out that the Latin root of the word "art" is "ars", which means "craft"
I do know exactly what you mean, though. I think I'm the artist in my band, since I write nearly all the material, but art doesn't do anyone any good if a craftsman can't interpret it. Otherwise it never leaves the conceptual stage.

[BOD2]

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='220684' date='Jun 17 2008, 03:50 PM']It's probably not worth pointing out that the Latin root of the word "art" is "ars", which means "craft"
I do know exactly what you mean, though. I think I'm the artist in my band, since I write nearly all the material, but art doesn't do anyone any good if a craftsman can't interpret it. Otherwise it never leaves the conceptual stage.[/quote]

So we are all "ars's" then ?

I think you can probably be both - in your example you would be the "artist" but with craft skills allowing you to interpret your ideas. In that case I would say you would primarily be an artist.

[queenofthedepths]

[quote name='BOD2' post='220692' date='Jun 17 2008, 03:59 PM']So we are all "ars's" then ?

I think you can probably be both - in your example you would be the "artist" but with craft skills allowing you to interpret your ideas. In that case I would say you would primarily be an artist.[/quote]
...and the rest of the band, interpreting my instructions to play music I've written (I can't play the stuff I write, except on bass), are craftsmen.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='queenofthedepths' post='220684' date='Jun 17 2008, 03:50 PM']It's probably not worth pointing out that the Latin root of the word "art" is "ars", which means "craft"
I do know exactly what you mean, though. I think I'm the artist in my band, since I write nearly all the material, but art doesn't do anyone any good if a craftsman can't interpret it. Otherwise it never leaves the conceptual stage.[/quote]

Hmmm, so everyone who can formulate a concept of something original in their heads is an artist, whether they can demonstrate the concept or not?

I don't know if I agree with that. I'm sure I could imagine plenty of visual masterpeices, but i'd never have the painting skill to get them down onto some canvas.

Maybe to be an artist, you also have to be a craftsman, but you don't need to be an artist to be a craftsman, you can use other people's concepts.

[Huge Hands]

The Craftsmen. Sounds like a good name for a band.....

[chris_b]

[quote name='BOD2' post='220679' date='Jun 17 2008, 03:45 PM']...."Do you see your own playing as an art or as a craft" ?....[/quote]
Bit of each but I suppose the split is 80/20 for the craft side.
I have to say that I have played with some incredible players that I would put on the craft side and the biggest a**holes I have ever met would go on the art side. So you can see that I'm not unhappy with the arrangement.

[Jase]

Yeah, I got to thinking this too after bilbo mentioned art and craft in a post in the covers / creativity thread......I think my own personal bass playing is a craft to me....something I work at, strive to better myself, something I've developed and experimented with rather than considering myself being born with it.

[Bilbo]

I am both but the industry I operate in seems to require a considerably higher number of craftsmen than artists (like most industries, I guess). My aspirations towards being an artist are, therefore, frustrated. I have to, therefore, resign myself to being a craftsman who not only can't create in the proper sense of the word but has to accept that, to use a culinary metaphor, the music business is based around a chain of fast food restaraunts and not delicatessans. I thus have to not only operate as a craftsman rather than as an artist but I as a burger flipper instead of a chef.

Pisser, eh?

Edited June 17, 2008 by bilbo230763

[niceguyhomer]

I'm just a gifted amateur with no aspirations to be an artist.

[BOD2]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='220710' date='Jun 17 2008, 04:15 PM']I am both but the industry I operate in seems to require a considerably higher number of craftsmen than artists (like most industries, I guess). My aspirations towards being an artist are, therefore, frustrated. I have to, therefore, resign myself to being a craftsman who not only can't create in the proper sense of the word but has to accept that, to use a culinary metaphor, the music business is based around a chain of fast food restaraunts and not delicatessans. I thus have to not only operate as a craftsman rather than as an artist but I as a burger flipper instead of a chef.

Pisser, eh?[/quote]


And all this in a world where the masses seem happy to be fed the musical equivalent of "Turkey Twizzlers" ? (to continue in the culinary vein).

Where is the our Jamie Oliver when you need him ?

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='220710' date='Jun 17 2008, 04:15 PM']I am both but the industry I operate in seems to require a considerably higher number of craftsmen than artists (like most industries, I guess).[/quote]

That's not necessarily such a bad thing I suppose. A band full of John Lennons or Joe Strummers would no doubt self-destruct in pretty short order. Every great artist needs quality sidemen.

That's not so say I wouldn't rather be the great artist than the quality sideman, of course.

Anyway, to fulfil the requirement of the thread: I think I get hired because I can play my instrument and sing a bit, but I've always contributed to the writing too. I think if I wasn't contributing any ideas beyond a bass riff per tune I would start to feel uncomfortably replacable!

[Galilee]

I did a cod-psychological test once that showed that I was (pretty much) 100% using my ‘left brain’ all the time. So I’m great at analytical, logical, mathematical stuff, but rubbish at imagistic, intuitive, creative stuff. It’s for that reason that I’d say I’m just a craftsman. I’d never class myself as an artist because, as far as I’m concerned, I feel that I can operate the bass quite well on a logical, mathematical basis, but I can’t compose for toffee.

[cheddatom]

[quote name='thisnameistaken' post='220728' date='Jun 17 2008, 04:36 PM']I think if I wasn't contributing any ideas beyond a bass riff per tune I would start to feel uncomfortably replacable![/quote]

Very good point. I've often thought that.

[Kiwi]

I'm both, in varying amounts depending on context. If I'm jamming with the guys in the band on stuff I've just made up, I'm an artist and the emphasis is on finding inspiration and exploring creativity. If I'm performing covers on stage in our usual function band routine, then I'm trying to craft the music and the emphasis is on quality product.

I don't see a distinct line drawn between the two, its more a point between polar opposites. I've faced with this dilemna every day at work with clients expecting artistic levels of inspiration for craftsmans fees.

[Jase]

All musicians/players are replacable....no matter what he/she is contributing.

[jakenewmanbass]

Like many of these threads the question relies on individual definition and being what we are; varied, we will have a similar variety of definitions for this.
Here's mine: (and I believe it was my post in another thread in which this point was first raised)
Very few if any of us are artists by my definition. I would equate the terminology with excellence moving towards world class or at least unique/highly individual in order to achieve the status.

To use a bass player example by my personal definition Marcus Miller is a tremendous craftsman but MeShelle Ndegeocello is an artist.

Why? because like Marcus she has her own sound, like Marcus she is a monster groover, like Marcus she has taken the history of bass and made it her own. But unlike Marcus (and this is subjective) she has style, depth, integrity, atmosphere, that I don't find so readily available in Marcus' output in recent years.

For me it's that that elevates her to Artist status.

As for me, I'm good, but I'm not that good, but I'll die trying.

[Happy Jack]

[quote name='Galilee' post='220742' date='Jun 17 2008, 04:48 PM']I did a cod-psychological test once that showed that I was (pretty much) 100% using my ‘left brain’ all the time. So I’m great at analytical, logical, mathematical stuff, but rubbish at imagistic, intuitive, creative stuff. It’s for that reason that I’d say I’m just a craftsman. I’d never class myself as an artist because, as far as I’m concerned, I feel that I can operate the bass quite well on a logical, mathematical basis, but I can’t compose for toffee.[/quote]

Snap!

There's something very satisfying in a mathematical way about playing a walking bass line that constantly resolves from chord to chord.

My favourite classical composer, by a comfortable margin, is Bach. This is not a co-incidence.

[gypsymoth]

I have never understood this "artist" thing. what the heck is wrong with being a bassplayer/musician/writer - or entertainer if the music isn't as important as the appearance?

personally, I avoid people who make sounds but feel the need to classify themselves as artists. diiferent mindset.

[niceguyhomer]

[quote name='gypsymoth' post='220795' date='Jun 17 2008, 04:57 PM']I have never understood this "artist" thing. what the heck is wrong with being a bassplayer/musician/writer - or entertainer if the music isn't as important as the appearance?

personally, I avoid people who make sounds but feel the need to classify themselves as artists. diiferent mindset.[/quote]

A man after my own heart - people who refuse to be pidgeon-holed unite.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='gypsymoth' post='220795' date='Jun 17 2008, 05:57 PM']I have never understood this "artist" thing. what the heck is wrong with being a bassplayer/musician/writer - or entertainer if the music isn't as important as the appearance?

personally, I avoid people who make sounds but feel the need to classify themselves as artists. diiferent mindset.[/quote]
As I see it no-one suggested in any post that there is anything wrong with "being a bassplayer/musician/writer - or entertainer"
So given that it hasn't been hinted at and given the level of apparent anger with which you have entered the debate it sounds to me like the problem lies with you. And the fact that you avoid people for how they classify themselves displays a degree of prejudice.
Think I'd rather spend time with an artist than a bigot, not that you are one, I would wait until I had made your acquaintance to make that judgement however you classify yourself.

Edited June 17, 2008 by jakesbass

[peteb]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='220808' date='Jun 17 2008, 06:20 PM']As I see it no-one suggested in any post that there is anything wrong with "being a bassplayer/musician/writer - or entertainer"
So given that it hasn't been hinted at and given the level of apparent anger with which you have entered the debate it sounds to me like the problem lies with you. And the fact that you avoid people for how they classify themselves displays a degree of prejudice.
Think I'd rather spend time with an artist than a bigot, not that you are one, I would wait until I had made your acquaintance to make that judgement however you classify yourself.[/quote]
Jake, I don’t think that Gypsymoth is talking about avoiding people because of prejudice or any sort of bigotry, simply that he would rather not seek out the company of people who are a bit pretentious and take themselves too seriously

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='peteb' post='220825' date='Jun 17 2008, 06:38 PM']Jake, I don’t think that Gypsymoth is talking about avoiding people because of prejudice or any sort of bigotry, simply that he would rather not seek out the company of people who are a bit pretentious and take themselves too seriously[/quote]
I realise Pete thanks, I'm just being a little ascerbic and ironic. If it sounds over the top then I apologise. In any event if someone felt I was too heavy handed in stating my position I will always sort it by PM but thanks again.
Jake

[peteb]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='220829' date='Jun 17 2008, 06:47 PM']I realise Pete thanks, I'm just being a little ascerbic and ironic. If it sounds over the top then I apologise. In any event if someone felt I was too heavy handed in stating my position I will always sort it by PM but thanks again.
Jake[/quote]
I didn't think for a minute that you were seriously accusing anyone of being a bigot - I was just making the point that some people here are just a little too earnest about themselves and their music!

You play music because you enjoy doing so and hopefully make a few quid – what is the point of over analysis?