Artists or Craftsmen

[Jase]

[quote name='peteb' post='220851' date='Jun 17 2008, 07:04 PM']I didn't think for a minute that you were seriously accusing anyone of being a bigot - I was just making the point that some people here are just a little too earnest about themselves and their music!

You play music because you enjoy doing so and hopefully make a few quid – what is the point of over analysis?[/quote]

Nothing wrong with being serious about yourself or your music.

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='peteb' post='220851' date='Jun 17 2008, 07:04 PM']You play music because you enjoy doing so and hopefully make a few quid – what is the point of over analysis?[/quote]

I do enjoy music immensely but it goes a bit beyond making a few quid as it's my living, so analysis is, for me, quite important, to keep my skill set ahead of the game, but I absolutely take the point about taking yourself too seriously. I try not to, but ultimately it's for others to judge whether I do or not.

[gypsymoth]

I take flipping burgers seriously because it's my living ... and there is an art to selecting the right amount of onion vs pickle . and it takes a true artist to please a large lunchtime crowd

my kid is a skateboard artist, for his next birthday I think I'll get him a beret and a long cigarette holder. too bad he isn't old enough to grow an artiste's goatee

[ahpook]

don't ask me, i'm just the bass player

[thinman]

And I'm a butcher.

[thisnameistaken]

[quote name='peteb' post='220825' date='Jun 17 2008, 06:38 PM']Jake, I don’t think that Gypsymoth is talking about avoiding people because of prejudice or any sort of bigotry, simply that he would rather not seek out the company of people who are a bit pretentious and take themselves too seriously[/quote]

There's a large gulf between being pretentious and being discerning. I'd rather dismiss mainstream garbage for what it is and take the risk of being called pretentious by thick people, frankly.

[url="http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=O-kHB2fWUS8"]A bit of light relief[/url].

[Deep Thought]

I'm not skilled enough to be a craftsman-I must be an artist!

[Huge Hands]

I saw this shop in Farringdon on my way to rehearsal last night, and thought of this thread.

Wonder if he sells Car Wash "end of chorus" riffs and slap disco grooves?

[jakenewmanbass]

[quote name='gypsymoth' post='220920' date='Jun 17 2008, 08:45 PM']I take flipping burgers seriously because it's my living ... and there is an art to selecting the right amount of onion vs pickle . and it takes a true artist to please a large lunchtime crowd [/quote]

My first day job (in the 80s) was a 65 cover lunchtime restaurant, your statement rings very true with my memory.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='jakesbass' post='220751' date='Jun 17 2008, 04:59 PM']Like many of these threads the question relies on individual definition and being what we are; varied, we will have a similar variety of definitions for this.
Here's mine: (and I believe it was my post in another thread in which this point was first raised)
Very few if any of us are artists by my definition. I would equate the terminology with excellence moving towards world class or at least unique/highly individual in order to achieve the status.[/quote]

I know what you are saying, Jake, but I disagree on one fundamental point.

To be a poet, you need to write poetry.

To be a bass player, you need to play a bass.

To be a composer, you need to compose.

To be an artist, you need to 'do' art.

You can, however, be a [i]bad[/i] poet, a [i]bad [/i] bass player, a [i]bad[/i] composer or a [i]bad[/i] artist. And this is not vernacular slang; when I say [i]bad[/i] I MEAN [i]bad[/i] .

I think it is an aspiration towards excellence that drives me and it is that same aspiration that leaves me frustrated at the lack of opportunities to be genuinely (by my value system) creative. Nevertheless, I reserve the right to continue to sit in front of Sibelius, Cubase 3 or Band In A Box writing crappy little compositions, each of which represents another cobble on the Yellow Brick Road to compositional Xanadu! I AM a pretty capable bass player. I AM a ok jazz musician. I AM a lousy composer. But when I compose, it is because I want nothing more than to create something of lasting value, something that justifies the 1,000s of hours I have spend musiking (a term coined by musicologist Christopher Small). My writing is by far the least productive of my musical activities and yet it is the one I value most. I will keep trying.

'I Feel Love', triplets or not, just doesn't compete.

[alexclaber]

[quote name='Galilee' post='220742' date='Jun 17 2008, 04:48 PM']I did a cod-psychological test once that showed that I was (pretty much) 100% using my ‘left brain’ all the time. So I’m great at analytical, logical, mathematical stuff, but rubbish at imagistic, intuitive, creative stuff.[/quote]

Bach's music is incredibly logical and mathematical and he was probably the most significant composer of all time.

I know for me the initial ideas come out of nowhere but tying them all together into a composition feels like a mathematical puzzle at times...

Alex

[cheddatom]

I think that any drive towards excellence is more a trait of a craftsman/the craftsman within the artist.

IMHO an artist wants to create better and better art, but this could be worse and worse in other people's opinions, and they don't necessarily need to improve technical skill to improve art (in whoever's opinion).

[Bilbo]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='221150' date='Jun 18 2008, 09:48 AM']I think that any drive towards excellence is more a trait of a craftsman/the craftsman within the artist.

IMHO an artist wants to create better and better art, but this could be worse and worse in other people's opinions, and they don't necessarily need to improve technical skill to improve art (in whoever's opinion).[/quote]

A good point, oh cheesy one. I have always been intrigued by the fact that great raconteurs like, say, Gyles Brandreth or Stephen Fry, fail to communicate as effectively and universally as less 'erudite' individuals like Billy Connolly or Hardeep Singh Kohli. Art is not necessarily best served by technical skill.

[cheddatom]

Bilbo at home, stroking his goatee sipping coffee listening to Gyles Brandreth and Stephen Fry?!?!? ARRRGHGHG so jazzy!! Either i'm hung over or you're trying to give me a nervous breakdown.

[Bilbo]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='221214' date='Jun 18 2008, 10:42 AM']Bilbo at home, stroking his goatee sipping coffee listening to Gyles Brandreth and Stephen Fry?!?!? ARRRGHGHG so jazzy!![/quote]

Sorry, mate. More likely to be listening to Connolly and Kohli. I only know any of these guys because they occasionally appear on tv. I was trying to make a point.

If my reading intelligent writers and then thinking about what they say gets on your t***, then I am sorry. I promise to seek counselling.

[bnt]

I'm a King Crimson fan, so I've naturally heard about [url="http://www.guitarcraft.com/"]Guitar Craft[/url], where "craft" implies a practical emphasis. The way I understand it, it's a kind of guitar boot camp, where you're required to start from scratch with a new non-standard tuning, and lessons on how to hold a plectrum. It's for people who want to play like Robert Fripp, in other words - which I can understand, since he has a pretty amazing right hand - but it's not for everyone.

In that sense, Art is about thinking, and Craft is about doing. I like that old Steven Wright joke: "I've been doing a lot of abstract painting lately, extremely abstract. No brush, no paint, no canvas. I just think about it."

[cheddatom]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='221224' date='Jun 18 2008, 10:57 AM']Sorry, mate. More likely to be listening to Connolly and Kohli. I only know any of these guys because they occasionally appear on tv. I was trying to make a point.[/quote]

I took your point to be a reinforcement of my earlier point and so felt responding to it was unnecessary.

Your post, combined with a couple others of yours this morning, filled my head with a horrible image, and I was just having some fun with that.

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='221224' date='Jun 18 2008, 10:57 AM']If my reading intelligent writers and then thinking about what they say gets on your t***, then I am sorry. I promise to seek counselling.[/quote]

There's no need to promise anything to me! I certainly don't give a t*ss.

It was my mental image that got on my tits, not you bilbo! I'm sure you don't need an e-hug, but I can offer violent make-up sex at the weekend if you're up for it?

[Bilbo]

[quote name='cheddatom' post='221230' date='Jun 18 2008, 11:03 AM']It was my mental image that got on my tits, not you bilbo! I'm sure you don't need an e-hug, but I can offer violent make-up sex at the weekend if you're up for it?[/quote]

Sorry mate, I'm washing my goatee!

[cheddatom]

[quote name='bilbo230763' post='221233' date='Jun 18 2008, 11:07 AM']Sorry mate, I'm washing my goatee! [/quote]

That's a shame. Too much sperm in it?

[Galilee]

That'll teach me to read basschat whilst eating my lunch...